4 ms·

I'd add to the list of 'reasons why homo sapiens developed longer lifespans' the reason that grandparents sitting around the fire could teach young children. It

I'd add to the list of 'reasons why homo sapiens developed longer lifespans' the reason that grandparents sitting around the fire could teach young children. It's a social adaptation perhaps.

Jensson 4y ago
Maybe to take care for grandkids if their daughter dies in childbirth. The chance of that happening is very high when you have many kids and each daughter have many kids, so having old people around to care for their orphan grandkids seems like a very advantageous evolution.
- googlryas 4y ago
  Wouldn't the same effect be in play with family-living animals that aren't nearly as long lived? Like wolves for example. In fact all the other great apes only hit about 40 years before succumbing to old age, whereas humans are nearly double that.
  - eslaught 4y ago
    Four-legged animals don't have the same degree of birthing challenges as two-legged ones because of the way the birth canal is shaped. Consider for example how horses are able to be up and walking (both baby and mother) of some number of minutes of birth. That's because the baby comes out more developed, which is possible because of the larger birth canal (in relative proportions). Human have to come out underdeveloped because otherwise we wouldn't be able to give birth at all, and then that makes human infants especially helpless out of the womb.
sublinear 4y ago
I just can't help but comment on the strange notion of a "list of reasons why". The few correlations our feeble minds just happen to notice are not mystical decisions whereby nature slowly yields to the will of its creatures over many generations. Asking "why" is just anthropomorphizing for the sake of it.
- hyperpape 4y ago
  "List of reasons why" isn't meaningfully different from "list of factors causing X". To ask "why" is to ask for an explanation, and doesn't imply any anthropomorphizing. This isn’t absolutely obvious, because reason has two different characteristic uses: asking agents their reasons for acting, and asking the reason some event happened. Philosophers have spent a lot of time asking how those two uses are related.
  - raincom 4y ago
    One is called "intentional" explanation; the other, "causal" explanation.
- elevaet 4y ago
  "Why" is shorthand for the minutae of actual selection pressures that take much longer to type out than "why".
- edgyquant 4y ago
  >The few correlations our feeble minds just happen to notice are not mystical decisions This is not an objective fact, it’s your interpretation. People are allowed to believe reality is divine and “anthropomorphism” is a strawman. Something you’re doing in your head and projecting onto others.
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  Um, we are talking about people, right? So 'anthropomorphising' is maybe not the word we wanted here?
mach1ne 4y ago
That's fairly unlikely since it relies mostly on group selection, which is mostly a defunct theory.
- SimDeBeau 4y ago
  Since when is group selection a defunct theory?
  - mach1ne 4y ago
    Since we understood that it is the individual gene that is the unit of selection. Even Wikipedia reads: "The vast majority of behavioural biologists have not been convinced by renewed attempts to revisit group selection as a plausible mechanism of evolution." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection#Criticism
    - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
      Group selection is as obvious as the nose on your face. So many, many animal populations have non-breeding members that benefit the community. Individual selection cannot possibly be used to support that.
      - mach1ne 4y ago
        Name one where the system is not contingent on immediate family helping immediate family, or to be more precise, one which is not explained by Hamilton's Law. There is no individual selection either, by the way, that's another commmon misconception. You don't push out copies of yourself. There is only the selection of individual genes.
        JoeAltmaier 4y ago
        And the genes are in a population pool, not standing by themselves. So the only selection is group selection, that is, the survival of that part of the group that contains advantageous genes.
mythhouse 4y ago
why would grandpa be having sex then.
antiatheist 4y ago
This is a false premise.
deafpolygon 4y ago
"it takes a village" - younger adults who would give birth to children, then must go back to work and hunt/gather - leaving the older, less physically able to raise the children who are defenseless.
- defrost 4y ago
  > leaving the older, less physically able At a guess, just out of interest, how old do you reckon Paen and Tawan are here [1] as they drop a tree and process it to make Sago? That's physically demanding work with a lot of prep (weaving mats, strainers etc). Hunter/gathers/agrarians typically work until they drop and take care of children through extended overlapping family, not to mention taking children out to gather and dig from the get go from being carried before they can walk to having them follow along and help as soon as they are upright. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VomE4GN9Z6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VomE4GN9Z6I
  - deafpolygon 4y ago
    This is just the two of them, and they are making flour to be sold to other people to fund things that they need. I think a better representation is to look to certain African tribes for a better insight on how family structures may have looked in terms of child rearing. The 'nuclear' family structure is quite a recent development (in terms of human existence), and although far less common now, family structures typically included uncles and aunts and their children. > It is a cohesive unit which ideally provides economic, social and psychological security to all its members. Adinlofu (2009) made mentioned that the extended family ensures procreation of children and provides for the early care and training of children. Degbey (2012) also added that this same family system defines “social and moral norms and safeguards both material and spiritual customs and traditions as well as providing a variety of role models preparing the way for adulthood”. Degbey (2012) emphasized that the dominance of the elders/aged has a relatively high degree of social control on the individual especially, the youth. > https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/45760 https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/45760
    - defrost 4y ago

I'd add to the list of 'reasons why homo sapiens developed longer lifespans' the reason that grandparents sitting around the fire could teach young children. It's a social adaptation perhaps.

Jensson 4y ago

Maybe to take care for grandkids if their daughter dies in childbirth. The chance of that happening is very high when you have many kids and each daughter have many kids, so having old people around to care for their orphan grandkids seems like a very advantageous evolution.

googlryas 4y ago
Wouldn't the same effect be in play with family-living animals that aren't nearly as long lived? Like wolves for example. In fact all the other great apes only hit about 40 years before succumbing to old age, whereas humans are nearly double that.
- eslaught 4y ago
  Four-legged animals don't have the same degree of birthing challenges as two-legged ones because of the way the birth canal is shaped. Consider for example how horses are able to be up and walking (both baby and mother) of some number of minutes of birth. That's because the baby comes out more developed, which is possible because of the larger birth canal (in relative proportions). Human have to come out underdeveloped because otherwise we wouldn't be able to give birth at all, and then that makes human infants especially helpless out of the womb.

sublinear 4y ago

I just can't help but comment on the strange notion of a "list of reasons why". The few correlations our feeble minds just happen to notice are not mystical decisions whereby nature slowly yields to the will of its creatures over many generations. Asking "why" is just anthropomorphizing for the sake of it.

hyperpape 4y ago
"List of reasons why" isn't meaningfully different from "list of factors causing X". To ask "why" is to ask for an explanation, and doesn't imply any anthropomorphizing. This isn’t absolutely obvious, because reason has two different characteristic uses: asking agents their reasons for acting, and asking the reason some event happened. Philosophers have spent a lot of time asking how those two uses are related.
- raincom 4y ago
  One is called "intentional" explanation; the other, "causal" explanation.
elevaet 4y ago
"Why" is shorthand for the minutae of actual selection pressures that take much longer to type out than "why".
edgyquant 4y ago
>The few correlations our feeble minds just happen to notice are not mystical decisions This is not an objective fact, it’s your interpretation. People are allowed to believe reality is divine and “anthropomorphism” is a strawman. Something you’re doing in your head and projecting onto others.
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
Um, we are talking about people, right? So 'anthropomorphising' is maybe not the word we wanted here?

mach1ne 4y ago

That's fairly unlikely since it relies mostly on group selection, which is mostly a defunct theory.

SimDeBeau 4y ago
Since when is group selection a defunct theory?
- mach1ne 4y ago
  Since we understood that it is the individual gene that is the unit of selection. Even Wikipedia reads: "The vast majority of behavioural biologists have not been convinced by renewed attempts to revisit group selection as a plausible mechanism of evolution." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection#Criticism
  - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
    Group selection is as obvious as the nose on your face. So many, many animal populations have non-breeding members that benefit the community. Individual selection cannot possibly be used to support that.
    - mach1ne 4y ago
      Name one where the system is not contingent on immediate family helping immediate family, or to be more precise, one which is not explained by Hamilton's Law. There is no individual selection either, by the way, that's another commmon misconception. You don't push out copies of yourself. There is only the selection of individual genes.
      - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
        And the genes are in a population pool, not standing by themselves. So the only selection is group selection, that is, the survival of that part of the group that contains advantageous genes.

mythhouse 4y ago

why would grandpa be having sex then.

antiatheist 4y ago

This is a false premise.

deafpolygon 4y ago

"it takes a village" - younger adults who would give birth to children, then must go back to work and hunt/gather - leaving the older, less physically able to raise the children who are defenseless.

defrost 4y ago
> leaving the older, less physically able At a guess, just out of interest, how old do you reckon Paen and Tawan are here [1] as they drop a tree and process it to make Sago? That's physically demanding work with a lot of prep (weaving mats, strainers etc). Hunter/gathers/agrarians typically work until they drop and take care of children through extended overlapping family, not to mention taking children out to gather and dig from the get go from being carried before they can walk to having them follow along and help as soon as they are upright. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VomE4GN9Z6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VomE4GN9Z6I
- deafpolygon 4y ago
  This is just the two of them, and they are making flour to be sold to other people to fund things that they need. I think a better representation is to look to certain African tribes for a better insight on how family structures may have looked in terms of child rearing. The 'nuclear' family structure is quite a recent development (in terms of human existence), and although far less common now, family structures typically included uncles and aunts and their children. > It is a cohesive unit which ideally provides economic, social and psychological security to all its members. Adinlofu (2009) made mentioned that the extended family ensures procreation of children and provides for the early care and training of children. Degbey (2012) also added that this same family system defines “social and moral norms and safeguards both material and spiritual customs and traditions as well as providing a variety of role models preparing the way for adulthood”. Degbey (2012) emphasized that the dominance of the elders/aged has a relatively high degree of social control on the individual especially, the youth. > https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/45760 https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/45760
  - defrost 4y ago