3 ms·

I was laid off in April 2020 as well, and while some of my experience matches the author's some of it was very different. Being laid off was not a relief -- it

by JackFr 4y ago

I was laid off in April 2020 as well, and while some of my experience matches the author's some of it was very different. Being laid off was not a relief -- it was terrifying. All indications were that a severe recession was coming. Frankly, it was quite surprising to me that companies were hiring at all given the uncertainty. It was not obvious at the time that broad sectors of the economy could seamlessly move to 100% WFH. It was also my first experience in fully remote interviewing. I am a software engineer over fifty. I also have three children two of whom were in college, and my wife works in a travel related industry which was very much affected by the pandemic. Given those things I approached my job search aggressively and with a sense of urgency, and I made it out OK. I was out of work for about two months and accepted a role at flat comp. Being laid off is profoundly lonely. I was part of a mass layoff (approximately 2/3 of my company was laid off.) So while I was not alone in that sense, we were all very much alone together. Where you had been a team, you were now five people looking for jobs, each with their own problems and constraints. My wife could not have been more supportive, and yet the process of interviewing and landing a job is one you have to do by yourself. One of the hardest things is to maintain an upbeat outlook, and yet it is so necessary because no one is going to hire a miserable sad sack. On the other hand, I had no stigma whatsoever attached to the fact that I had been laid off. Part of that might have been that the size of the layoff was such that anyone with any glancing familiarity with the place I was at would know that 2/3 of the company were laid off. One thing that I would emphasize would be maintain your professional network in good times and in bad. I got a number of good leads that way.

tnel77 4y ago
I have a bit to go before I’m a software engineer over fifty, but I have a lot of anxiety about it primarily from an ageism standpoint. I don’t really want to go into management because I love coding and solving problems, but I fear that one day I’ll will struggle to find work due to my age. What has your experience been with this issue?
- Fr3dd1 4y ago
  I myself lead a software development team. I am 31 and the last two people I hired were almost 50 and they are very good devs. In my opinion age alone isnt a reason not to hire someone. What is the "common reason" older people are not considered to be hired? I guess because people think they cant adapt or are stuck in some ways in theire thinking. If your future you can show that this is not the case, I guess you are fine :) Only "REAL" age related reason is (and I have to admit that I myself didnt hire someone because of that) if the person wants to retire in the near future and you think you want to invest your time in someone who will, hopefully, stay longer.
  - sweezyjeezy 4y ago
    Some IC roles do fit more younger candidates than older. E.g. in a startup - often better they not have outside commitments like a family, or need for a healthy work-life balance. Sometimes "work smarter not harder" falls apart and they need to work like a maniac. On balance I've found older colleagues less willing to do that. That isn't meant as a criticism, just an observation about role-fit, those people usually didn't last long.
    - Fr3dd1 4y ago
      The underlying belief to this is, is that more hours = more results = better results. I highly doubt that this is the truth.
      - sweezyjeezy 4y ago
        That's not the underlying belief in a startup. It's more like: we have not fully figured out market fit. We may need to build something very very quickly (I'm talking about hours/days, not weeks/months) and then maintain them for while. That's why I say "work smarter not harder" can fail - that only works if you make assumptions about the future, in a startup that can only take you so far.
        Fr3dd1 4y ago
        Okay, I didnt thought about such an early state.
- JackFr 4y ago
  I worry about it too. What I have found is that it's important to keep your skills very, very current. It's OK to be reasonably skeptical about the latest hotness, but it's imperative to know about it and why it's the latest hotness. No one cares (OK very few people care) about the systems you built in perl in the 90's. They will care about your opinion Go vs. Rust vs. C++, even if you are not an expert in any of them. You needn't have used every no-SQL data store, but again you need to know about them. On the other hand if you are a subject matter expert in a particular domain, then your twenty years of experience are indeed very useful, and while no one wants to replicate the risk reporting system you built in Motif/X in the 90's, they may well want build it in React.
- remote_phone 4y ago
  Over 50 in 2022 is very different than over 50 in 2000. I’m GenX and grew up with the internet but I know life before the internet. I know technology more than most and keep up with it. I play video games (finished elden ring earlier this year) and watch TikTok 2 hours a day. I’m not young but the gap between me and someone younger isn’t a vast canyon like it used to be. My last job hunt a year ago I got over 5 job offers. I wouldn’t be too worried.
  - mixmastamyk 4y ago
    Well, the issue unfortunately is that we know that but a thirty y-o hiring manager doesn't. A few years back I saw folks commenting on YouTube about the "good old days" of 2013 and had good sensible chuckle. Also, tiktok is like smoking—wouldn't recommend.
- adra 4y ago
  I think age gets thrown around a lot but it's never really appeared to me from my singular data point. I think the larger (at least post screener perspective) is that you always need to stay relevant. If you're working for a company 10+ years doing roughly the same thing doing amazing work, that doesn't mean you're employable in the market at large. You need to feed the trends to at least know what the larger community is doing, and keep relevant skills in your resume (and actually know them) to show you aren't a dinosaur (not in age, but in competence in obsolete tech). I update my resume every couple years if I'm looking for work or not. Not helping, there are a bunch of dead end companies that are the only companies willing to employ the people at the level they do, so it can lead to bleak perspectives when you're forced out and try to work outside your comfort level. I've known more than a few exit software entirely as they were unable to find suitable alternatives.
kelnos 4y ago
> I had no stigma whatsoever attached to the fact that I had been laid off. This point in the article was weird to me, that you should creatively avoid saying that you were laid off. Sure, some layoffs are just an excuse to get rid of people who the company believe are low performers, so if you were laid off from a prominent company where recruiters know why the layoff happened, this could be a problem for you when looking for a new job. But if you were caught in the string of layoffs happening this year (or at the beginning of the pandemic), I can't see how there'd be stigma attached to that. And I'd worry that being evasive about why you're no longer at your previous company could be a red flag to recruiters; just doesn't seem worth it.
- turdprincess 4y ago
  It is none's business about why you left (or are leaving) your previous job, unless perhaps it is due to some legal issue that would show up on a (criminal) background check. Interviewing for a new job is all about the future, and it's totally up to you to reveal only the facts about your past that paint you in a favorable light. Whether or not saying you got laid off would hurt your chances is a separate question. My guess is most of the time it wont. But as a flip, would saying you got laid off improve your chances of getting the job? If the answer is no, then its not worth saying - focus instead on the things that for sure portray you positively. The same goes for jobs with short tenures - if you stayed at some place for a few months and left just leave it off your resume. It doesn't do anything to sell you, so why waste time on it? Just remember, an interview is a short period of time to sell the best parts of yourself that are most applicable to the job. It is not a 100% confession of all the good and bad things that happened to you.
- ketzo 4y ago
  Yes, when lots of companies are cutting back to their most essential employees, it helps provide a little cover. But, y'know, regardless of the environment, what does it say about your abilities that your employer didn't consider you essential? This is a very pessimistic way to view things that I don't fully believe, and of course any reasonable person knows that being part of a layoff is very rarely just the employee's fault. But to perhaps state the obvious, being laid off is never gonna look good, or even neutral. There will always be stigma. Being able to reframe your layoff in as positive of a light as you can is important.

by JackFr 4y ago

tnel77 4y ago

I have a bit to go before I’m a software engineer over fifty, but I have a lot of anxiety about it primarily from an ageism standpoint. I don’t really want to go into management because I love coding and solving problems, but I fear that one day I’ll will struggle to find work due to my age. What has your experience been with this issue?

Fr3dd1 4y ago
I myself lead a software development team. I am 31 and the last two people I hired were almost 50 and they are very good devs. In my opinion age alone isnt a reason not to hire someone. What is the "common reason" older people are not considered to be hired? I guess because people think they cant adapt or are stuck in some ways in theire thinking. If your future you can show that this is not the case, I guess you are fine :) Only "REAL" age related reason is (and I have to admit that I myself didnt hire someone because of that) if the person wants to retire in the near future and you think you want to invest your time in someone who will, hopefully, stay longer.
- sweezyjeezy 4y ago
  Some IC roles do fit more younger candidates than older. E.g. in a startup - often better they not have outside commitments like a family, or need for a healthy work-life balance. Sometimes "work smarter not harder" falls apart and they need to work like a maniac. On balance I've found older colleagues less willing to do that. That isn't meant as a criticism, just an observation about role-fit, those people usually didn't last long.
  - Fr3dd1 4y ago
    The underlying belief to this is, is that more hours = more results = better results. I highly doubt that this is the truth.
    - sweezyjeezy 4y ago
      That's not the underlying belief in a startup. It's more like: we have not fully figured out market fit. We may need to build something very very quickly (I'm talking about hours/days, not weeks/months) and then maintain them for while. That's why I say "work smarter not harder" can fail - that only works if you make assumptions about the future, in a startup that can only take you so far.
      - Fr3dd1 4y ago
        Okay, I didnt thought about such an early state.
JackFr 4y ago
I worry about it too. What I have found is that it's important to keep your skills very, very current. It's OK to be reasonably skeptical about the latest hotness, but it's imperative to know about it and why it's the latest hotness. No one cares (OK very few people care) about the systems you built in perl in the 90's. They will care about your opinion Go vs. Rust vs. C++, even if you are not an expert in any of them. You needn't have used every no-SQL data store, but again you need to know about them. On the other hand if you are a subject matter expert in a particular domain, then your twenty years of experience are indeed very useful, and while no one wants to replicate the risk reporting system you built in Motif/X in the 90's, they may well want build it in React.
remote_phone 4y ago
Over 50 in 2022 is very different than over 50 in 2000. I’m GenX and grew up with the internet but I know life before the internet. I know technology more than most and keep up with it. I play video games (finished elden ring earlier this year) and watch TikTok 2 hours a day. I’m not young but the gap between me and someone younger isn’t a vast canyon like it used to be. My last job hunt a year ago I got over 5 job offers. I wouldn’t be too worried.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  Well, the issue unfortunately is that we know that but a thirty y-o hiring manager doesn't. A few years back I saw folks commenting on YouTube about the "good old days" of 2013 and had good sensible chuckle. Also, tiktok is like smoking—wouldn't recommend.
adra 4y ago
I think age gets thrown around a lot but it's never really appeared to me from my singular data point. I think the larger (at least post screener perspective) is that you always need to stay relevant. If you're working for a company 10+ years doing roughly the same thing doing amazing work, that doesn't mean you're employable in the market at large. You need to feed the trends to at least know what the larger community is doing, and keep relevant skills in your resume (and actually know them) to show you aren't a dinosaur (not in age, but in competence in obsolete tech). I update my resume every couple years if I'm looking for work or not. Not helping, there are a bunch of dead end companies that are the only companies willing to employ the people at the level they do, so it can lead to bleak perspectives when you're forced out and try to work outside your comfort level. I've known more than a few exit software entirely as they were unable to find suitable alternatives.

kelnos 4y ago

> I had no stigma whatsoever attached to the fact that I had been laid off. This point in the article was weird to me, that you should creatively avoid saying that you were laid off. Sure, some layoffs are just an excuse to get rid of people who the company believe are low performers, so if you were laid off from a prominent company where recruiters know why the layoff happened, this could be a problem for you when looking for a new job. But if you were caught in the string of layoffs happening this year (or at the beginning of the pandemic), I can't see how there'd be stigma attached to that. And I'd worry that being evasive about why you're no longer at your previous company could be a red flag to recruiters; just doesn't seem worth it.

turdprincess 4y ago
It is none's business about why you left (or are leaving) your previous job, unless perhaps it is due to some legal issue that would show up on a (criminal) background check. Interviewing for a new job is all about the future, and it's totally up to you to reveal only the facts about your past that paint you in a favorable light. Whether or not saying you got laid off would hurt your chances is a separate question. My guess is most of the time it wont. But as a flip, would saying you got laid off improve your chances of getting the job? If the answer is no, then its not worth saying - focus instead on the things that for sure portray you positively. The same goes for jobs with short tenures - if you stayed at some place for a few months and left just leave it off your resume. It doesn't do anything to sell you, so why waste time on it? Just remember, an interview is a short period of time to sell the best parts of yourself that are most applicable to the job. It is not a 100% confession of all the good and bad things that happened to you.
ketzo 4y ago
Yes, when lots of companies are cutting back to their most essential employees, it helps provide a little cover. But, y'know, regardless of the environment, what does it say about your abilities that your employer didn't consider you essential? This is a very pessimistic way to view things that I don't fully believe, and of course any reasonable person knows that being part of a layoff is very rarely just the employee's fault. But to perhaps state the obvious, being laid off is never gonna look good, or even neutral. There will always be stigma. Being able to reframe your layoff in as positive of a light as you can is important.