5 ms·

I’d be interested in understanding this better - what kind of sensors do you have in mind that are junk?

by wrigby 4y ago

dsfyu404ed 4y ago
They use microphones to detect gunshots. It works in a controlled environment but in an actual municipality the data needs enough "massaging" by human analysts to get what are still fundamentally low-quality tips it's somewhere between redundant and a waste of resources.
- cratermoon 4y ago
  > the data needs enough "massaging" by human analysts to get what are still fundamentally low-quality tips it's somewhere between redundant and a waste of resources. And those analysts are part of a law enforcement community that is rife with biases about crime and guns, which means most of the places where the system finds gunshots are where the biased people (who by default placed the detectors according to a bias) expect to hear gunshots.
BryantD 4y ago
ShotSpotter’s results are iffy, which appears to be a combination of a) ShotSpotter employees overriding the AI and b) weaknesses in the tech. There’s also some potential for reinforcing bias if you only put the sensors in neighborhoods you’re already worried about. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28264686 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28264686 has previous discussion on this from a number of viewpoints.
- googlryas 4y ago
  The goal of police is public safety, and nothing to do with preventing reinforcing biases. If you designed a polar bear detector to help prevent people from being eaten by polar bears, would you also deploy them in Florida for the sake of fairness, even though there are no polar bear attacks there?
  - RHSeeger 4y ago
    > The goal of police is public safety To be clear... the goal of the police _force_ is to enforce the law. The goal of (some) individual police officers is public safety, but certainly not all of them (and some days, it seems like not many of them... but you generally only hear about the bad stuff in the news, so take that with a grain of salt).
    - Quinner 4y ago
      The goal of the police is to have secure jobs with a decent salary and benefits, and ideally be meaningful in some way (could be promoting public safety... could be exerting power over others). Often enforcing the law helps secure budgets (especially when it comes to enforcing drug laws with lucrative civil forfeiture seizures), but more recently many police departments have tried a different tactic when budgets have been threatened: actively refusing to enforce the law, in order to increase crime and prompt political change.
      - dinkumthinkum 4y ago
        The police increase crime?
  - BryantD 4y ago
    I’d like the public to be safe from the public servants who carry guns as part of their day to day work. If those public servants are biased to believe that my neighborhood is less safe than it is, they’re more likely to use force when it isn’t warranted. Thus, I’m not as safe. I conclude that it is a matter of public safety to avoid reinforcing biases. Since the article this thread is about shows that some portion of police are willing to believe any damn thing, I think my concerns are reasonable.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - AlbertCory 4y ago
      > If those public servants are biased to believe that my neighborhood is less safe than it is Could it be "bias" to look at crime statistics? Maybe it's less safe than you think it is.
weakfortress 4y ago
If you've ever shot a gun or been around guns you'd know the rapport of various guns is not always consistent. Often, it is difficult to tell the difference between a gunshot and a firework for example. Even something like dropping a wood pallet far enough away can sound like the echos of a gunshot. Backfiring from a car can sound remarkably close to a small caliber rifle. If a gunshot doesnt happen quite literally within a few dozen feet of you it's often hard to tell. Typically the way you can tell is people who shoot guns generally don't do it once. Several rapports tend to raise the probability of a gun. ShotSpotter works in isolation because in isolation a certain noise profile is almost certainly a gun shot. Like most ML aiming to change the world it's powered by p-hacking.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  the report, rapport is not something I want to have with a gun unless I am a character in Full Metal Jacket

I’d be interested in understanding this better - what kind of sensors do you have in mind that are junk?

by wrigby 4y ago

I’d be interested in understanding this better - what kind of sensors do you have in mind that are junk?

They use microphones to detect gunshots. It works in a controlled environment but in an actual municipality the data needs enough "massaging" by human analysts to get what are still fundamentally low-quality tips it's somewhere between redundant and a waste of resources.

cratermoon 4y ago
> the data needs enough "massaging" by human analysts to get what are still fundamentally low-quality tips it's somewhere between redundant and a waste of resources. And those analysts are part of a law enforcement community that is rife with biases about crime and guns, which means most of the places where the system finds gunshots are where the biased people (who by default placed the detectors according to a bias) expect to hear gunshots.

BryantD 4y ago

ShotSpotter’s results are iffy, which appears to be a combination of a) ShotSpotter employees overriding the AI and b) weaknesses in the tech. There’s also some potential for reinforcing bias if you only put the sensors in neighborhoods you’re already worried about. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28264686 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28264686 has previous discussion on this from a number of viewpoints.

googlryas 4y ago
The goal of police is public safety, and nothing to do with preventing reinforcing biases. If you designed a polar bear detector to help prevent people from being eaten by polar bears, would you also deploy them in Florida for the sake of fairness, even though there are no polar bear attacks there?
- RHSeeger 4y ago
  > The goal of police is public safety To be clear... the goal of the police _force_ is to enforce the law. The goal of (some) individual police officers is public safety, but certainly not all of them (and some days, it seems like not many of them... but you generally only hear about the bad stuff in the news, so take that with a grain of salt).
  - Quinner 4y ago
    The goal of the police is to have secure jobs with a decent salary and benefits, and ideally be meaningful in some way (could be promoting public safety... could be exerting power over others). Often enforcing the law helps secure budgets (especially when it comes to enforcing drug laws with lucrative civil forfeiture seizures), but more recently many police departments have tried a different tactic when budgets have been threatened: actively refusing to enforce the law, in order to increase crime and prompt political change.
    - dinkumthinkum 4y ago
      The police increase crime?
- BryantD 4y ago
  I’d like the public to be safe from the public servants who carry guns as part of their day to day work. If those public servants are biased to believe that my neighborhood is less safe than it is, they’re more likely to use force when it isn’t warranted. Thus, I’m not as safe. I conclude that it is a matter of public safety to avoid reinforcing biases. Since the article this thread is about shows that some portion of police are willing to believe any damn thing, I think my concerns are reasonable.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - AlbertCory 4y ago
    > If those public servants are biased to believe that my neighborhood is less safe than it is Could it be "bias" to look at crime statistics? Maybe it's less safe than you think it is.

weakfortress 4y ago

If you've ever shot a gun or been around guns you'd know the rapport of various guns is not always consistent. Often, it is difficult to tell the difference between a gunshot and a firework for example. Even something like dropping a wood pallet far enough away can sound like the echos of a gunshot. Backfiring from a car can sound remarkably close to a small caliber rifle. If a gunshot doesnt happen quite literally within a few dozen feet of you it's often hard to tell. Typically the way you can tell is people who shoot guns generally don't do it once. Several rapports tend to raise the probability of a gun. ShotSpotter works in isolation because in isolation a certain noise profile is almost certainly a gun shot. Like most ML aiming to change the world it's powered by p-hacking.

selimthegrim 4y ago
the report, rapport is not something I want to have with a gun unless I am a character in Full Metal Jacket