5 ms·

I'm guessing #7 contributed to the fact that it took the author 1 year to find another job. If you're desperate, you can most likely find an _okay_ job in 3 mon

by doix 4y ago

I'm guessing #7 contributed to the fact that it took the author 1 year to find another job. If you're desperate, you can most likely find an _okay_ job in 3 months. If you don't have the luxury to wait for a "good" job, finding a job tends to happen faster.

ThePadawan 4y ago
I'm in similar shoes to the author here, and am glad to hear you show some understanding for this. I interviewed with a quite promising company beginning of December, only to immediately get the written feedback (after the first call) of "Well I know a lot of SWE in this town and none of them are struggling to find a job - so if you've been looking for X months, surely there's something wrong with you - and anyway, we've already signed a contract with someone else in the 5 days since we last spoke." (To be fair to them - I had mentioned how frustrating it was to simply get "no" as negative hiring feedback and asked them to elaborate if at all possible) I take it as a "well, bullet dodged" moment, but I am not going to lie and say it didn't sting.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  This sort of thing is pretty common. It happens in both directions, if you're employed job offers line up, if you're available there must be something wrong with you. Highly frustrating. A couple of takeaways: unemployed < freelancers < has a job < has a prestigious job. So if possible and you're on the job market at least fill the time freelancing so you don't end up with the 'unemployed' status because hiring managers are going to see that as a way to excuse themselves, from that point forward they look at employing you as taking a risk, which, as a rule they are trained to avoid. VCs suffer from the same disability: the start-up that has a deal on the table will have multiple parties trying to get in on the deal, the start-up that is just pitching is probably somehow faulty or someone else would have given them a terms sheet long ago. They see no inconsistency in this. Also, you don't necessarily have to inform them of your feelings and the fact that you've been rejected more than once. Best of luck there!
  - ThePadawan 4y ago
    Thank you for the well wishes and a happy new year!
- jt2190 4y ago
  > I had mentioned how frustrating it was to simply get "no" as negative hiring feedback and asked them to elaborate if at all possible Don’t do this! You’re inviting feedback from someone who is basically a complete stranger, who has an undisclosed set of “standards” they’re judging you against, and who might not actually be very good at assessing talent. The odds of getting a “false signal” are high.
  - anon50118810 4y ago
    Asking for feedback is okay if you're in the right mindset. Understand that unless you completely failed something, it's probably them, not you, and any feedback you get should be seen as likely rationalizing a decision they made for who knows what reasons. So as long as you don't take the feedback too hard or too personally, you might get some ideas for how to improve your chances with the next employer.
  - ThePadawan 4y ago
    I've honestly made enough of a positive experience to recommend doing it. Sometimes people just genuinely tell you things like "there wasn't enough detail about X on your CV, but we took a chance and called you anyway" - that tells me that I can improve my chances for a callback in the future by adding more detail (if I get that same feedback 2-3 times). You're right though in that a looooooooot of hiring people also have no clue what they want to see.
  - xboxnolifes 4y ago
    There's no reason to avoid information. You can still ignore it.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- FpUser 4y ago
  >"so if you've been looking for X months, surely there's something wrong with you - and anyway, we've already signed a contract with someone else in the 5 days since we last spoke." I think letting them know you are currently unemployed is a mistake. Frankly your current state of affairs is not their business. You can always tell them that you are ok but looking for a better job. Very simple and understandable. Yes it is a lie but it is the only reasonable option. Telling perspective employer to sod off and not to stick their nose into your internal situation is not going to do you any good. Telling that you are out of job and looking will immediately put you into unfavorable position. Treat yourself as a business in this particular case. Businesses have zero problems lying to each other / their employees for as long as it does not break a law.
  - anon50118810 4y ago
    There's really no way to hide you're currently unemployed, or at least not employed in the tech field, unless you make up an entire fantasy world. Not only will you have to put the lie into your resume, and maybe provide fake references, but you'll also get tons of interview questions about skills and projects and challenges from your current job.
    - ThePadawan 4y ago
      You're bang on - I was asked in the very first call for two references. Also in this case I really don't mind disclosing - I was laid off because my position was made redundant entirely.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - FpUser 4y ago
      >"There's really no way to hide you're currently unemployed" It is absolutely trivial. >"but you'll also get tons of interview questions about skills and projects and challenges from your current job" Your last job unless it is 10 years old should provide all of the answers. Any really identifying details should not be asked / answered as the employee is normally under NDA. Same for references. Reference from "current job" can simply be refused. I can hardly imagine employee going to their boss and asking for a job reference while still working. Anyways I am independent and run my own company. Maybe I am not up to date about how deep the US employers are able to stick their fingers up that proverbial hole.
pinewurst 4y ago
I can respond to this having gone through a similar process in the past few years. There’s ok and there’s the (IMHO) more common bad. I turned down several offers myself, for reasons ranging from ‘not wanting to be the public advocate for something I didn’t believe in’ to ‘discovering the leadership were crypto scammers’.
sbuccini 4y ago
Just curious, what do you define as an _okay_ job? Would you be willing to pay the opportunity cost to take it? For what it's worth, I thought the same. I applied to over 50 companies and not all of them were FAANG by any stretch of the imagination. I'll admit I'm not the best at interviewing, which certainly was a factor. But even as I broadened my search to the "okay" roles, I still had difficulty landing work.
- doix 4y ago
  > Just curious, what do you define as an _okay_ job? Would you be willing to pay the opportunity cost to take it? If I didn't have enough money to pay for food/rent, I would take the first offer. Fortunately, I've never been in that situation. > I applied to over 50 companies and not all of them were FAANG by any stretch of the imagination. I'll admit I'm not the best at interviewing, which certainly was a factor. But even as I broadened my search to the "okay" roles, I still had difficulty landing work. If you're thinking about the distinction between FAANG and not FAANG, then we are talking about completely different levels of _okay_. I'm talking about non-tech companies, where you'd most likely be working on internal tools or whatever. Maybe you'd be writing crappy Jira/Confleunce/whatever plugins. Or gluing together one internal system to another internal system, etc. I consider _okay_ to mean a job that pays enough money to cover rent/food.
  - anon50118810 4y ago
    It would be great if you could share your insights about finding work at these non-tech companies, either here or at my recent post at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34108841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34108841. I've applied to far over 50 places and would be satisfied with that sort of thing at least for the near term.
    - doix 4y ago
      You're looking for a remote job. The sort of companies I'm thinking of most likely won't do remote. Maybe it's different now in the era of COVID, but I suspect they'll still be "asses in chairs, look busy" type places. Go on monster.com (or any other job search site), type in "programmer" (or "<language> programmer" if you only have experience in a single language) and start applying. If you don't recognize the company name or what they do, that's good. If you're looking for a consultancy gig, then you probably want to look out for keywords like "government" or "client". If you're looking for a non-tech company, then you need to google the company name and see what field their in. If you know Java, you can probably search for "Jira programmer" or "Jira developer" and find a pretty cushy gig writing those. If you know PHP, then search for "wordpress developer". If it's python, search "Django developer" etc.
coffeebeqn 4y ago
The bar can get very low! Look into local low prestige consulting companies if you’re really desperate for something. I worked at one after moving to the US and the hiring bar was extremely low and I was working there a few days later
- johnchristopher 4y ago
  I am not sure this apply to western EU thought. N=1 but I had a long dry spell even though I work IT. I think it's like for successful startups: luck, luck and luck. edit: And for having been on the hiring side a bit: I know luck's involved, more than people think or - worse - than they want to admit.
- cjaro 4y ago
  I agree. I was hired over a year ago to a similar place that's since been acquired by a Big IT Consulting Company. One benefit of that situation is that a) I can kinda just blend in and do my job quietly without attracting much notice, and b) the hiring bar was insanely low, the easiest interview-to-offer pipeline I have ever fallen through. I'm not planning to stay forever, but they're paying my bills and giving me work so for now, I'm content to stick it out, maybe through the end of next year even.
  - anon50118810 4y ago
    For both your and the GP's comment, it would be great if you could share some details on how job searching with "local low prestige consulting companies" works, either here or in a recent post I made at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34108841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34108841.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
dangus 4y ago
I was about to say the same thing. #2, #4, and #7 partially contradict each other. I think you can go faster if you use third-party recruiters, as much as I often despise them. Try to pick out one or two individuals within recruiting firms that are not awful. They're out there. Recruiters are given the jobs that corporations need a warm body to fill now. Yes, you can absolutely always quit that un-ideal job and completely omit it from your resume. I don't see the wrong role as a good reason to turn down a job when you have bills to pay. My other feedback on this article: I wish it generally talked about unemployment insurance. It can be a complicated process, and I wonder if the author had any success there. #1 should is a part of the basic life skill of understanding the difference between coworkers and friends. I do have friends that started as coworkers, and they did a lot more than help with the mechanics of getting laid off. I do agree that it's not a life skill that is taught very well. If you want to turn coworkers into lasting friends, you need to be proactive and invite them to do things outside of work. #3, I'm just not sure I agree with it. Getting interviews is an excellent indicator. At the very least it means that your resume is attractive. I don't think it's very common for companies to waste their own employees' time interviewing people for roles they aren't serious about filling. My rule of thumb is that if you get beyond the recruiter and talk to the hiring manager, the company is serious and intends to fill the role. Maybe they get around to it or maybe not, we all know how priorities can change. #5 seems like a waste of time. Either you know someone who is a hiring manager or you know someone who can refer you through a company's referral system. I think those are the only two activities that are productive. I wouldn't want to get any of those requests in my LinkedIn Inbox. Writing open source software is a waste of time with respect to job hunting unless you are looking to build a portfolio. Your time is better used physically applying for jobs (which takes a legitimately solid amount of time). #6, totally agree with that. The author absolutely overshared, and should have known better. Corporations want to know that you can keep secrets. Transparency is almost never in the best interest of a company. As I mentioned above, I'd only agree with #7 if you have runway/a spouse earning income. I'd almost replace #8 with "enjoy being laid off." Spend some days doing activities meant for joy, especially if you've exhausted your job application pipeline for the moment. I'm almost hoping I get laid off, I love not working, and I loved all the stuff I got to do the last time I was laid off. I played two video games the whole way through and read an entire novel, which are things I rarely get through when I'm employed.
francisofascii 4y ago
Yep. Author covers that under #4. "You may have to take a job at a “less prestigious” company." Probably the best advice in the blog post.

by doix 4y ago

ThePadawan 4y ago

I'm in similar shoes to the author here, and am glad to hear you show some understanding for this. I interviewed with a quite promising company beginning of December, only to immediately get the written feedback (after the first call) of "Well I know a lot of SWE in this town and none of them are struggling to find a job - so if you've been looking for X months, surely there's something wrong with you - and anyway, we've already signed a contract with someone else in the 5 days since we last spoke." (To be fair to them - I had mentioned how frustrating it was to simply get "no" as negative hiring feedback and asked them to elaborate if at all possible) I take it as a "well, bullet dodged" moment, but I am not going to lie and say it didn't sting.

jacquesm 4y ago
This sort of thing is pretty common. It happens in both directions, if you're employed job offers line up, if you're available there must be something wrong with you. Highly frustrating. A couple of takeaways: unemployed < freelancers < has a job < has a prestigious job. So if possible and you're on the job market at least fill the time freelancing so you don't end up with the 'unemployed' status because hiring managers are going to see that as a way to excuse themselves, from that point forward they look at employing you as taking a risk, which, as a rule they are trained to avoid. VCs suffer from the same disability: the start-up that has a deal on the table will have multiple parties trying to get in on the deal, the start-up that is just pitching is probably somehow faulty or someone else would have given them a terms sheet long ago. They see no inconsistency in this. Also, you don't necessarily have to inform them of your feelings and the fact that you've been rejected more than once. Best of luck there!
- ThePadawan 4y ago
  Thank you for the well wishes and a happy new year!
jt2190 4y ago
> I had mentioned how frustrating it was to simply get "no" as negative hiring feedback and asked them to elaborate if at all possible Don’t do this! You’re inviting feedback from someone who is basically a complete stranger, who has an undisclosed set of “standards” they’re judging you against, and who might not actually be very good at assessing talent. The odds of getting a “false signal” are high.
- anon50118810 4y ago
  Asking for feedback is okay if you're in the right mindset. Understand that unless you completely failed something, it's probably them, not you, and any feedback you get should be seen as likely rationalizing a decision they made for who knows what reasons. So as long as you don't take the feedback too hard or too personally, you might get some ideas for how to improve your chances with the next employer.
- ThePadawan 4y ago
  I've honestly made enough of a positive experience to recommend doing it. Sometimes people just genuinely tell you things like "there wasn't enough detail about X on your CV, but we took a chance and called you anyway" - that tells me that I can improve my chances for a callback in the future by adding more detail (if I get that same feedback 2-3 times). You're right though in that a looooooooot of hiring people also have no clue what they want to see.
- xboxnolifes 4y ago
  There's no reason to avoid information. You can still ignore it.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
FpUser 4y ago
>"so if you've been looking for X months, surely there's something wrong with you - and anyway, we've already signed a contract with someone else in the 5 days since we last spoke." I think letting them know you are currently unemployed is a mistake. Frankly your current state of affairs is not their business. You can always tell them that you are ok but looking for a better job. Very simple and understandable. Yes it is a lie but it is the only reasonable option. Telling perspective employer to sod off and not to stick their nose into your internal situation is not going to do you any good. Telling that you are out of job and looking will immediately put you into unfavorable position. Treat yourself as a business in this particular case. Businesses have zero problems lying to each other / their employees for as long as it does not break a law.
- anon50118810 4y ago
  There's really no way to hide you're currently unemployed, or at least not employed in the tech field, unless you make up an entire fantasy world. Not only will you have to put the lie into your resume, and maybe provide fake references, but you'll also get tons of interview questions about skills and projects and challenges from your current job.
  - ThePadawan 4y ago
    You're bang on - I was asked in the very first call for two references. Also in this case I really don't mind disclosing - I was laid off because my position was made redundant entirely.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - FpUser 4y ago
    >"There's really no way to hide you're currently unemployed" It is absolutely trivial. >"but you'll also get tons of interview questions about skills and projects and challenges from your current job" Your last job unless it is 10 years old should provide all of the answers. Any really identifying details should not be asked / answered as the employee is normally under NDA. Same for references. Reference from "current job" can simply be refused. I can hardly imagine employee going to their boss and asking for a job reference while still working. Anyways I am independent and run my own company. Maybe I am not up to date about how deep the US employers are able to stick their fingers up that proverbial hole.

pinewurst 4y ago

I can respond to this having gone through a similar process in the past few years. There’s ok and there’s the (IMHO) more common bad. I turned down several offers myself, for reasons ranging from ‘not wanting to be the public advocate for something I didn’t believe in’ to ‘discovering the leadership were crypto scammers’.

sbuccini 4y ago

Just curious, what do you define as an _okay_ job? Would you be willing to pay the opportunity cost to take it? For what it's worth, I thought the same. I applied to over 50 companies and not all of them were FAANG by any stretch of the imagination. I'll admit I'm not the best at interviewing, which certainly was a factor. But even as I broadened my search to the "okay" roles, I still had difficulty landing work.

doix 4y ago
> Just curious, what do you define as an _okay_ job? Would you be willing to pay the opportunity cost to take it? If I didn't have enough money to pay for food/rent, I would take the first offer. Fortunately, I've never been in that situation. > I applied to over 50 companies and not all of them were FAANG by any stretch of the imagination. I'll admit I'm not the best at interviewing, which certainly was a factor. But even as I broadened my search to the "okay" roles, I still had difficulty landing work. If you're thinking about the distinction between FAANG and not FAANG, then we are talking about completely different levels of _okay_. I'm talking about non-tech companies, where you'd most likely be working on internal tools or whatever. Maybe you'd be writing crappy Jira/Confleunce/whatever plugins. Or gluing together one internal system to another internal system, etc. I consider _okay_ to mean a job that pays enough money to cover rent/food.
- anon50118810 4y ago
  It would be great if you could share your insights about finding work at these non-tech companies, either here or at my recent post at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34108841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34108841. I've applied to far over 50 places and would be satisfied with that sort of thing at least for the near term.
  - doix 4y ago
    You're looking for a remote job. The sort of companies I'm thinking of most likely won't do remote. Maybe it's different now in the era of COVID, but I suspect they'll still be "asses in chairs, look busy" type places. Go on monster.com (or any other job search site), type in "programmer" (or "<language> programmer" if you only have experience in a single language) and start applying. If you don't recognize the company name or what they do, that's good. If you're looking for a consultancy gig, then you probably want to look out for keywords like "government" or "client". If you're looking for a non-tech company, then you need to google the company name and see what field their in. If you know Java, you can probably search for "Jira programmer" or "Jira developer" and find a pretty cushy gig writing those. If you know PHP, then search for "wordpress developer". If it's python, search "Django developer" etc.

coffeebeqn 4y ago

The bar can get very low! Look into local low prestige consulting companies if you’re really desperate for something. I worked at one after moving to the US and the hiring bar was extremely low and I was working there a few days later

johnchristopher 4y ago
I am not sure this apply to western EU thought. N=1 but I had a long dry spell even though I work IT. I think it's like for successful startups: luck, luck and luck. edit: And for having been on the hiring side a bit: I know luck's involved, more than people think or - worse - than they want to admit.
cjaro 4y ago
I agree. I was hired over a year ago to a similar place that's since been acquired by a Big IT Consulting Company. One benefit of that situation is that a) I can kinda just blend in and do my job quietly without attracting much notice, and b) the hiring bar was insanely low, the easiest interview-to-offer pipeline I have ever fallen through. I'm not planning to stay forever, but they're paying my bills and giving me work so for now, I'm content to stick it out, maybe through the end of next year even.
- anon50118810 4y ago
  For both your and the GP's comment, it would be great if you could share some details on how job searching with "local low prestige consulting companies" works, either here or in a recent post I made at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34108841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34108841.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

dangus 4y ago

I was about to say the same thing. #2, #4, and #7 partially contradict each other. I think you can go faster if you use third-party recruiters, as much as I often despise them. Try to pick out one or two individuals within recruiting firms that are not awful. They're out there. Recruiters are given the jobs that corporations need a warm body to fill now. Yes, you can absolutely always quit that un-ideal job and completely omit it from your resume. I don't see the wrong role as a good reason to turn down a job when you have bills to pay. My other feedback on this article: I wish it generally talked about unemployment insurance. It can be a complicated process, and I wonder if the author had any success there. #1 should is a part of the basic life skill of understanding the difference between coworkers and friends. I do have friends that started as coworkers, and they did a lot more than help with the mechanics of getting laid off. I do agree that it's not a life skill that is taught very well. If you want to turn coworkers into lasting friends, you need to be proactive and invite them to do things outside of work. #3, I'm just not sure I agree with it. Getting interviews is an excellent indicator. At the very least it means that your resume is attractive. I don't think it's very common for companies to waste their own employees' time interviewing people for roles they aren't serious about filling. My rule of thumb is that if you get beyond the recruiter and talk to the hiring manager, the company is serious and intends to fill the role. Maybe they get around to it or maybe not, we all know how priorities can change. #5 seems like a waste of time. Either you know someone who is a hiring manager or you know someone who can refer you through a company's referral system. I think those are the only two activities that are productive. I wouldn't want to get any of those requests in my LinkedIn Inbox. Writing open source software is a waste of time with respect to job hunting unless you are looking to build a portfolio. Your time is better used physically applying for jobs (which takes a legitimately solid amount of time). #6, totally agree with that. The author absolutely overshared, and should have known better. Corporations want to know that you can keep secrets. Transparency is almost never in the best interest of a company. As I mentioned above, I'd only agree with #7 if you have runway/a spouse earning income. I'd almost replace #8 with "enjoy being laid off." Spend some days doing activities meant for joy, especially if you've exhausted your job application pipeline for the moment. I'm almost hoping I get laid off, I love not working, and I loved all the stuff I got to do the last time I was laid off. I played two video games the whole way through and read an entire novel, which are things I rarely get through when I'm employed.

francisofascii 4y ago

Yep. Author covers that under #4. "You may have to take a job at a “less prestigious” company." Probably the best advice in the blog post.