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I was walking in the New Mexican desert this Christmas and finding painted pottery shards that date to a little before Columbus arrived. It felt so powerful to

I was walking in the New Mexican desert this Christmas and finding painted pottery shards that date to a little before Columbus arrived. It felt so powerful to touch something that existed before then and think what their lives must have been like before the arrival of Columbus and everything changing.

themantra514 4y ago
Pottery, painted pottery, and mycelium derived materials are all the craze nowadays because it's "green & organic" etc. It would be interesting to consider other aspects from pre-Columbus times that we should consider integrating in our daily life.
hirundo 4y ago
It has surprised me that the majority of pottery shards I find in the New Mexico desert are painted. The unpainted ones are the exceptions. So these must not have been special ceremonial pots, but for every day use. The fact that the pueblo people put such a high value on decoration for everyday objects is fascinating. I think of aboriginals as utilitarians struggling to survive. But if you're taking the time to decorate normal pots, survival must be relatively assured. I'd like to exchange lives with someone who made those pots for a for a few weeks, and compare notes. I wonder if I have more or less free time than they do.
- comte7092 4y ago
  >I think of aboriginals as utilitarians struggling to survive. Grouping all pre Colombian Native Americans into one bucket is akin to talking about “Africa” as one indistinguishable place today. There was a massive diversity of societies and cultures that spanned the continent with trading networks that crisscrossed the continent as well. Most European account of initial contact tend to describe a life of relative abundance, people certainly weren’t struggling to survive any more than your average 15th century European.
- Mistletoe 4y ago
  I feel the same. Nearly every shard we found had painting on it. These people were decorating their daily lives and tools, celebrating them with art. My brother is a potter and it was fascinating to listen to him talk about how they did the polychrome pots. For anyone reading this far, here is the kind of pots we are discussing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Lazaro_archaeological_site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Lazaro_archaeological_site
spaceman_2020 4y ago
I keep wondering how these civilizations might have developed if we'd discovered them in, say, 1900 instead of 1500s. Or what if Columbus did land on the American shores, but never made it back to Europe, and the native Americans got their hands on European technology and figured out how to recreate it.
- mathattack 4y ago
  The outcome is the same. They lacked our weapons and immunizations- it would have been hard to catch up in parallel with the Western world. Look at Japan in the 1850s. The isolation of the prior few centuries hurt them.
  - throw_pm23 4y ago
    Were there any positive effects of the long isolation in the case of Japan?
    - credit_guy 4y ago
      In an indirect way. (warning: following is highly speculative) - being isolated made Japan backward. Also, Japan does not have natural resources, and is not an agricultural powerhouse. This meant Japan was not a juicy target for the colonial powers. - Still, given enough time, one of them would surely have snatched it - Japan figured out the point above, and decided to not become a colony. It industrialized at a furious pace until it became a half-decent military power - huge stroke of luck, or something else, but Japan destroys a Russian fleet at Tsushima in 1905, and leapfrogs into the ranks of Great Powers - they further gain a lot in WW1 by sitting on the sidelines, and eventually joining the winning side - this goes to their head, and they proceed to do the most foolish thing at Perl Harbor, and pick a fight with the 800 pound gorilla - this fight does not go well, predictably, so Japan ends up under US occupation for 7 years - another huge stroke of luck: US, instead of sending Japan back to the stone age in retribution, decides to help Japan rebuild, and pumps massive amounts of aid - Japan goes through a second incredibly fast bout of industrialization This story ends around 1990.

themantra514 4y ago

Pottery, painted pottery, and mycelium derived materials are all the craze nowadays because it's "green & organic" etc. It would be interesting to consider other aspects from pre-Columbus times that we should consider integrating in our daily life.

hirundo 4y ago

It has surprised me that the majority of pottery shards I find in the New Mexico desert are painted. The unpainted ones are the exceptions. So these must not have been special ceremonial pots, but for every day use. The fact that the pueblo people put such a high value on decoration for everyday objects is fascinating. I think of aboriginals as utilitarians struggling to survive. But if you're taking the time to decorate normal pots, survival must be relatively assured. I'd like to exchange lives with someone who made those pots for a for a few weeks, and compare notes. I wonder if I have more or less free time than they do.

comte7092 4y ago
>I think of aboriginals as utilitarians struggling to survive. Grouping all pre Colombian Native Americans into one bucket is akin to talking about “Africa” as one indistinguishable place today. There was a massive diversity of societies and cultures that spanned the continent with trading networks that crisscrossed the continent as well. Most European account of initial contact tend to describe a life of relative abundance, people certainly weren’t struggling to survive any more than your average 15th century European.
Mistletoe 4y ago
I feel the same. Nearly every shard we found had painting on it. These people were decorating their daily lives and tools, celebrating them with art. My brother is a potter and it was fascinating to listen to him talk about how they did the polychrome pots. For anyone reading this far, here is the kind of pots we are discussing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Lazaro_archaeological_site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Lazaro_archaeological_site

spaceman_2020 4y ago

I keep wondering how these civilizations might have developed if we'd discovered them in, say, 1900 instead of 1500s. Or what if Columbus did land on the American shores, but never made it back to Europe, and the native Americans got their hands on European technology and figured out how to recreate it.

mathattack 4y ago
The outcome is the same. They lacked our weapons and immunizations- it would have been hard to catch up in parallel with the Western world. Look at Japan in the 1850s. The isolation of the prior few centuries hurt them.
- throw_pm23 4y ago
  Were there any positive effects of the long isolation in the case of Japan?
  - credit_guy 4y ago
    In an indirect way. (warning: following is highly speculative) - being isolated made Japan backward. Also, Japan does not have natural resources, and is not an agricultural powerhouse. This meant Japan was not a juicy target for the colonial powers. - Still, given enough time, one of them would surely have snatched it - Japan figured out the point above, and decided to not become a colony. It industrialized at a furious pace until it became a half-decent military power - huge stroke of luck, or something else, but Japan destroys a Russian fleet at Tsushima in 1905, and leapfrogs into the ranks of Great Powers - they further gain a lot in WW1 by sitting on the sidelines, and eventually joining the winning side - this goes to their head, and they proceed to do the most foolish thing at Perl Harbor, and pick a fight with the 800 pound gorilla - this fight does not go well, predictably, so Japan ends up under US occupation for 7 years - another huge stroke of luck: US, instead of sending Japan back to the stone age in retribution, decides to help Japan rebuild, and pumps massive amounts of aid - Japan goes through a second incredibly fast bout of industrialization This story ends around 1990.