8 ms·

Real ID was a real mistake and Congress should scrap it at last

25 points by apress 4y ago

chunk_waffle 4y ago
As someone who had to work countless, sleepless nights and weekends in a crazy push to get a REAL ID solution implemented it really annoys me that they extended the deadline. I've long since left that company but there were multiple pushes like that where we were trying to get a state compliant before the previous deadlines.
- uberman 4y ago
  First, I understand your pain. I once worked on a team building a product for a multi billion silicon valley company only to have to project cancelled on the very evening before launch. It sucked and I felt cheated. It took a long time for me to realize that I had been paid to do what I did and they choose to throw the work away, but it was theirs to discard. With respect to Real ID, it is a stupid program and should be scrapped. It is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to stick a scarlet letter on immigrants. Here's the thing though, every legal immigrant and likely many illegal immigrants already have documents like green cards and passports they can use rather to fly. In the end, this program places the overwhelming burden on US citizens who dont already have a passport (the poorest 66% of us), doing very little to actually make air travel safer. RealID is the expensive side asymmetric response to an imagined problem that we cant possibly spend our way out of. In fact, throwing money away like this is exactly what the bad guys want.
  - chunk_waffle 4y ago
    > It is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to stick a scarlet letter on immigrants. I completely disagree, otherwise I wouldn't have worked on the program at all. > every legal immigrant and likely many illegal immigrants already have documents like green cards and passports they can use rather to fly. This is true, legal immigrants can still fly. It does add more friction to some illegal immigrants and I don't think that's a bad thing. It also helps prevent identity theft and sets a bare minimum for states handing out identity-proving documents. I've been in DMVs when the new system caught fake documents and fake licenses that would not have been caught before (having worked on both the REAL ID and non-REAL ID systems.) > In the end, this program places the overwhelming burden on US citizens who don't already have a passport (the poorest 66% of us) I don't think the requirements for obtaining a REAL ID are overwhelming for legal citizens and immigrants. Also, keep in mind it is the state that sets the price of a REAL ID card. The federal government even gave grants to many (all?) states and territories to implement the program. > doing very little to actually make air travel safer. I agree with this. I don't think it particularly improves the security or safety of flights either and wish the whole program was decoupled from flying. There are real improvements to the security of DMV's systems and their vetting processes. Especially for some states/territories that were handing out ID's and licenses like candy. Though in a whole the program has been a mess as can be seen with the numerous extensions.
    - landemva 4y ago
      Right, there was no friction for 9/11 persons who boarded the planes. They simply walked on. More surveillance and recording of location of lawful persons does not help security. This is a slowly tightening prison blanket. > security of DMV's systems It's a _license_ to operate motor vehicle. Can be on paper without picture to fulfill that purpose.
      - chunk_waffle 4y ago
        Boarding a plane before 9/11 was much easier, and I'm not necessarily convinced that TSA, DHS, or REAL ID have a security impact on flying relative to their cost and burden on citizens. I think there is a lot of incompetence and unnecessary expenses there. So we're in agreement on that. I think the security screening (I might even call it mild molestation) required to board a flight should trump any need for any identity document. I don't think REAL ID's goals should be co-mingled with flying. I'd also agree that a driver's license shouldn't be an identity document either. But unfortunately at some point in history it was decided that a DL should be an identity document too so unfortunately it's wrapped up with everything else. There are not just REAL ID licenses either, there are REAL ID IDs too, just for identity.
      - onetokeoverthe 4y ago
        [dead]
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      > I don't think the requirements for obtaining a REAL ID are overwhelming for legal citizens and immigrants. Maybe the computer systems are well-thought out and efficient, but what you're missing is that DMVs are terribly time-wasting, and nobody wants to go to one until it's absolutely necessary. Until the federal government makes it a priority to clean up customer-facing bureaucracies at all levels of government they interact with, these sorts of migrations will remain quagmires.
      - chunk_waffle 4y ago
        > Maybe the computer systems are well-thought out and efficient They're not. Far from it. Not the systems implemented for the states, and not the systems implemented by the federal government. At the end of the day it is enterprise software written to specs created by state and federal government. In most cases the new system has improvements over the previous one (better UI, more secure), but that's just because the federal government helped pay the bill for a shiny new system. > what you're missing is that DMVs are terribly time-wasting, and nobody wants to go to one until it's absolutely necessary That's a fair point. When a state/territory switches over to a new REAL ID system there is definitely a significant increase in per-customer processing time. After a few weeks the staff is better equipped and a lot of the software issues have been ironed out and they get faster but it may always take a bit more time than before. I've seen cases where a customer had to come back multiple times over the course of a week (due to no fault of their own) to get their license and I've seen cases where they are in and out in a few minutes with license in hand (some states print at their offices, some do factory printing and mail out.) > Until the federal government makes it a priority to clean up customer-facing bureaucracies at all levels of government they interact with, these sorts of migrations will remain quagmires. The customer-facing side is the state/territory-run DMVs though. The states have to collect a bit more information to comply with REAL ID but they have nearly all the control over the customer experience. Maybe the federal government could withhold funds for future updates to the systems if states don't meet some criteria for fast processing and better customer service but I won't hold my breath (though that would be great.)
CaliforniaKarl 4y ago
https://archive.ph/yTO2u https://archive.ph/yTO2u
more_corn 4y ago
Real ID’s sole purpose is to punitively restrict travel for non citizens, particularly undocumented workers. If you value liberty you should oppose it. It’s the best example of a specific step in the slide to a restrictive police state. In no way does it improve security. I encourage everyone to speak out against it.
- thatguy0900 4y ago
  I'm not really convinced doing something about illegal immigrants is a step towards a police state. Is this US only rhetoric? Do other countries regularly just allow people to immigrate illegaly and are not interested in doing anything about it? Like I can't imagine just boating to some random coast in Norway and expect to just live a new life there unimpeded by the law.
  - uberman 4y ago
    You realize that an illegal immigrant with a valid passport does not need a realid to fly right?
    - ksniwmidjd 4y ago
      [flagged]
    - thatguy0900 4y ago
      How many illegal immigrants have their passports and are willing to risk flying with them? I'm more talking about the mindset of illegally entering a country and then having the expectation that I can do anything there, anyway. Like in my Norway example, I can't imagine just walking to an airport and expecting everything to work out when I just boated into a random part of the country illegally. Is this a US idea that that should be expected to work? I don't have the perspective to know, so I'm asking.
      - nerdbert 4y ago
        Living in the Netherlands, I haven't had to show ID to any government agent when flying to another country in the Schengen area in at least ten years (and I fly quite often). If I don't check in online then I am sometime asked to show it at check-in. And sometimes I have to show it at the gate, but the people there are only eyeballing it to make sure the name matches the boarding pass. Note that I do often have to show ID on the return flight. Each country (and probably airport) has its own procedures.
rhaway84773 4y ago
> “The day would not be far off,” wrote cybersecurity and surveillance expert Jim Harper, a former congressional committee counsel and senior fellow at the Cato Institute, “when a national ID is required for picking up prescriptions, purchasing guns and ammunition, paying by credit card, booking air travel, and reserving hotel stays, to name just a few types of transactions the federal government might regulate.” Again: That may be normal in some societies, but it cuts sharply against the grain in ours. I’m not sure I fully understand the argument here. This is normal in US society. I cannot pickup prescriptions, travel, stay in a hotel, etc without a legitimate ID. The argument appears to be that an ID issues by a state government is ok, but if it’s issued by the federal government that’s somehow, philosophically an overreach of power. There are very good arguments against RealID. But the argument that it’s somehow fundamentally any different from what the US does today does not seem right at all.
- yial 4y ago
  I have never been asked for an ID to pick up prescriptions. Name, date of birth, and once address. But never an ID. I’ve traveled across the US without having to show an ID for anything. I have usually needed to show an ID to stay at a hotel, but not an Airbnb(or did I have to upload it at some point? I can’t remember now), or some rental condos. (Diamond for example doesn’t always ask for one). That said, I agree with your second point.
  - hacym 4y ago
    Certain OTC and prescription drugs definitely require an ID. Think coffee syrups and potent pain meds.
    - whoosh3 4y ago
      Pseudoephedrine, many ADHD medications and some muscle relaxants require ID.
      - OmahaBoy69 4y ago
        You got me curious as to which states require ID to pick up prescription narcotics as I've never heard of this living in Illinois and Colorado. Turns out each state has its own set of unique and sometimes bizarre rules: https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/menu-pdil.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/menu-pdil.pdf
bootlooped 4y ago
I like the attempt to scare the reader by pointing out the barcode is unencrypted and anybody with an simple scanner could get it. But if they're holding your ID I'm pretty sure they can already read all of that same info printed on the front of the card.
- hooverd 4y ago
  You can identify identity thieves by the CueCat hidden up their sleeve.
sleepytimetea 4y ago
Date moved to May 2025.
amluto 4y ago
> A national database linking all driver’s licenses would effectively impose something alien to our system of civil liberties: a national ID card. This whole premise is a bit bizarre. We have national databases. We have the IRS’s tax database, social security, and Medicare. We have the selective service database. We have whatever database CBP uses to track anyone who has ever been known to cross a border. We also have the databases operated by Experian and its competitors, which are worse, because they give out data to basically anyone and are accountable to no one. And they violate people’s’ civil liberties in egregious ways that the government would have trouble getting away with. Frankly, an actual well-managed national ID database seems like an improvement in all respects. Of course, Real ID is no such thing.
- goodSteveramos 4y ago
  if we tied the creation of a national database to the abolishment of the private ones congress would abandon the national one immediately
  - scotty79 4y ago
    Isn't it what happening right now? USA unlike any other first world (or even second world) country doesn't have national ID. When USA differs in any aspect from the rest of the civilized world there's usually money involved. Heaps of it.
    - goodSteveramos 4y ago
      Absolutely not. The National ID system is not replacing Experian and other privately owned and highly invasive databases on Americans.
      - scotty79 4y ago
        But it couldn't diminish their profitablity and we can't have that.
        4y ago

25 points by apress 4y ago

As someone who had to work countless, sleepless nights and weekends in a crazy push to get a REAL ID solution implemented it really annoys me that they extended the deadline. I've long since left that company but there were multiple pushes like that where we were trying to get a state compliant before the previous deadlines.

uberman 4y ago
First, I understand your pain. I once worked on a team building a product for a multi billion silicon valley company only to have to project cancelled on the very evening before launch. It sucked and I felt cheated. It took a long time for me to realize that I had been paid to do what I did and they choose to throw the work away, but it was theirs to discard. With respect to Real ID, it is a stupid program and should be scrapped. It is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to stick a scarlet letter on immigrants. Here's the thing though, every legal immigrant and likely many illegal immigrants already have documents like green cards and passports they can use rather to fly. In the end, this program places the overwhelming burden on US citizens who dont already have a passport (the poorest 66% of us), doing very little to actually make air travel safer. RealID is the expensive side asymmetric response to an imagined problem that we cant possibly spend our way out of. In fact, throwing money away like this is exactly what the bad guys want.
- chunk_waffle 4y ago
  > It is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to stick a scarlet letter on immigrants. I completely disagree, otherwise I wouldn't have worked on the program at all. > every legal immigrant and likely many illegal immigrants already have documents like green cards and passports they can use rather to fly. This is true, legal immigrants can still fly. It does add more friction to some illegal immigrants and I don't think that's a bad thing. It also helps prevent identity theft and sets a bare minimum for states handing out identity-proving documents. I've been in DMVs when the new system caught fake documents and fake licenses that would not have been caught before (having worked on both the REAL ID and non-REAL ID systems.) > In the end, this program places the overwhelming burden on US citizens who don't already have a passport (the poorest 66% of us) I don't think the requirements for obtaining a REAL ID are overwhelming for legal citizens and immigrants. Also, keep in mind it is the state that sets the price of a REAL ID card. The federal government even gave grants to many (all?) states and territories to implement the program. > doing very little to actually make air travel safer. I agree with this. I don't think it particularly improves the security or safety of flights either and wish the whole program was decoupled from flying. There are real improvements to the security of DMV's systems and their vetting processes. Especially for some states/territories that were handing out ID's and licenses like candy. Though in a whole the program has been a mess as can be seen with the numerous extensions.
  - landemva 4y ago
    Right, there was no friction for 9/11 persons who boarded the planes. They simply walked on. More surveillance and recording of location of lawful persons does not help security. This is a slowly tightening prison blanket. > security of DMV's systems It's a _license_ to operate motor vehicle. Can be on paper without picture to fulfill that purpose.
    - chunk_waffle 4y ago
      Boarding a plane before 9/11 was much easier, and I'm not necessarily convinced that TSA, DHS, or REAL ID have a security impact on flying relative to their cost and burden on citizens. I think there is a lot of incompetence and unnecessary expenses there. So we're in agreement on that. I think the security screening (I might even call it mild molestation) required to board a flight should trump any need for any identity document. I don't think REAL ID's goals should be co-mingled with flying. I'd also agree that a driver's license shouldn't be an identity document either. But unfortunately at some point in history it was decided that a DL should be an identity document too so unfortunately it's wrapped up with everything else. There are not just REAL ID licenses either, there are REAL ID IDs too, just for identity.
    - onetokeoverthe 4y ago
      [dead]
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    > I don't think the requirements for obtaining a REAL ID are overwhelming for legal citizens and immigrants. Maybe the computer systems are well-thought out and efficient, but what you're missing is that DMVs are terribly time-wasting, and nobody wants to go to one until it's absolutely necessary. Until the federal government makes it a priority to clean up customer-facing bureaucracies at all levels of government they interact with, these sorts of migrations will remain quagmires.
    - chunk_waffle 4y ago
      > Maybe the computer systems are well-thought out and efficient They're not. Far from it. Not the systems implemented for the states, and not the systems implemented by the federal government. At the end of the day it is enterprise software written to specs created by state and federal government. In most cases the new system has improvements over the previous one (better UI, more secure), but that's just because the federal government helped pay the bill for a shiny new system. > what you're missing is that DMVs are terribly time-wasting, and nobody wants to go to one until it's absolutely necessary That's a fair point. When a state/territory switches over to a new REAL ID system there is definitely a significant increase in per-customer processing time. After a few weeks the staff is better equipped and a lot of the software issues have been ironed out and they get faster but it may always take a bit more time than before. I've seen cases where a customer had to come back multiple times over the course of a week (due to no fault of their own) to get their license and I've seen cases where they are in and out in a few minutes with license in hand (some states print at their offices, some do factory printing and mail out.) > Until the federal government makes it a priority to clean up customer-facing bureaucracies at all levels of government they interact with, these sorts of migrations will remain quagmires. The customer-facing side is the state/territory-run DMVs though. The states have to collect a bit more information to comply with REAL ID but they have nearly all the control over the customer experience. Maybe the federal government could withhold funds for future updates to the systems if states don't meet some criteria for fast processing and better customer service but I won't hold my breath (though that would be great.)

CaliforniaKarl 4y ago

https://archive.ph/yTO2u https://archive.ph/yTO2u

more_corn 4y ago

Real ID’s sole purpose is to punitively restrict travel for non citizens, particularly undocumented workers. If you value liberty you should oppose it. It’s the best example of a specific step in the slide to a restrictive police state. In no way does it improve security. I encourage everyone to speak out against it.

thatguy0900 4y ago
I'm not really convinced doing something about illegal immigrants is a step towards a police state. Is this US only rhetoric? Do other countries regularly just allow people to immigrate illegaly and are not interested in doing anything about it? Like I can't imagine just boating to some random coast in Norway and expect to just live a new life there unimpeded by the law.
- uberman 4y ago
  You realize that an illegal immigrant with a valid passport does not need a realid to fly right?
  - ksniwmidjd 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - thatguy0900 4y ago
    How many illegal immigrants have their passports and are willing to risk flying with them? I'm more talking about the mindset of illegally entering a country and then having the expectation that I can do anything there, anyway. Like in my Norway example, I can't imagine just walking to an airport and expecting everything to work out when I just boated into a random part of the country illegally. Is this a US idea that that should be expected to work? I don't have the perspective to know, so I'm asking.
    - nerdbert 4y ago
      Living in the Netherlands, I haven't had to show ID to any government agent when flying to another country in the Schengen area in at least ten years (and I fly quite often). If I don't check in online then I am sometime asked to show it at check-in. And sometimes I have to show it at the gate, but the people there are only eyeballing it to make sure the name matches the boarding pass. Note that I do often have to show ID on the return flight. Each country (and probably airport) has its own procedures.

rhaway84773 4y ago

> “The day would not be far off,” wrote cybersecurity and surveillance expert Jim Harper, a former congressional committee counsel and senior fellow at the Cato Institute, “when a national ID is required for picking up prescriptions, purchasing guns and ammunition, paying by credit card, booking air travel, and reserving hotel stays, to name just a few types of transactions the federal government might regulate.” Again: That may be normal in some societies, but it cuts sharply against the grain in ours. I’m not sure I fully understand the argument here. This is normal in US society. I cannot pickup prescriptions, travel, stay in a hotel, etc without a legitimate ID. The argument appears to be that an ID issues by a state government is ok, but if it’s issued by the federal government that’s somehow, philosophically an overreach of power. There are very good arguments against RealID. But the argument that it’s somehow fundamentally any different from what the US does today does not seem right at all.

yial 4y ago
I have never been asked for an ID to pick up prescriptions. Name, date of birth, and once address. But never an ID. I’ve traveled across the US without having to show an ID for anything. I have usually needed to show an ID to stay at a hotel, but not an Airbnb(or did I have to upload it at some point? I can’t remember now), or some rental condos. (Diamond for example doesn’t always ask for one). That said, I agree with your second point.
- hacym 4y ago
  Certain OTC and prescription drugs definitely require an ID. Think coffee syrups and potent pain meds.
  - whoosh3 4y ago
    Pseudoephedrine, many ADHD medications and some muscle relaxants require ID.
    - OmahaBoy69 4y ago
      You got me curious as to which states require ID to pick up prescription narcotics as I've never heard of this living in Illinois and Colorado. Turns out each state has its own set of unique and sometimes bizarre rules: https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/menu-pdil.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/menu-pdil.pdf

bootlooped 4y ago

I like the attempt to scare the reader by pointing out the barcode is unencrypted and anybody with an simple scanner could get it. But if they're holding your ID I'm pretty sure they can already read all of that same info printed on the front of the card.

hooverd 4y ago
You can identify identity thieves by the CueCat hidden up their sleeve.

sleepytimetea 4y ago

Date moved to May 2025.

amluto 4y ago

> A national database linking all driver’s licenses would effectively impose something alien to our system of civil liberties: a national ID card. This whole premise is a bit bizarre. We have national databases. We have the IRS’s tax database, social security, and Medicare. We have the selective service database. We have whatever database CBP uses to track anyone who has ever been known to cross a border. We also have the databases operated by Experian and its competitors, which are worse, because they give out data to basically anyone and are accountable to no one. And they violate people’s’ civil liberties in egregious ways that the government would have trouble getting away with. Frankly, an actual well-managed national ID database seems like an improvement in all respects. Of course, Real ID is no such thing.

goodSteveramos 4y ago
if we tied the creation of a national database to the abolishment of the private ones congress would abandon the national one immediately
- scotty79 4y ago
  Isn't it what happening right now? USA unlike any other first world (or even second world) country doesn't have national ID. When USA differs in any aspect from the rest of the civilized world there's usually money involved. Heaps of it.
  - goodSteveramos 4y ago
    Absolutely not. The National ID system is not replacing Experian and other privately owned and highly invasive databases on Americans.
    - scotty79 4y ago
      But it couldn't diminish their profitablity and we can't have that.
      - 4y ago