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Taking sex differences in personality seriously involves taking the reality seriously that women are treated radically differently than men in almost every soci

Taking sex differences in personality seriously involves taking the reality seriously that women are treated radically differently than men in almost every society on earth, and that radical difference is generally that women are a permanent lower caste, and are victims of violence far more than they are perpetrators of violence. These goofy exercises in the eugenics of common sense and the obvious all require us to believe that if I raise one mouse in a dark 6 in^3 wooden box, and let another mouse run free (or even in a different kind of box), that at the end of that process I should still have two identical mice. The fact that men and women have different personalities and cultures is no more necessarily genetic than the fact that the English and the French speak entirely different languages.

newaccount74 4y ago
I remember the day that my 3 year old son took his Elsa doll to Kindergarten. I don't know what they said to him, but after that day he declared his favorite color is now black and he no longer wanted the doll. I'm sure there are some genetic sex differences, but looking at the huge difference in how society treats kids from the youngest age on, I'm going to say it's very hard to differentiate between genetic vs. society.
Throw4949 4y ago
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rajin444 4y ago
Your above exercise is silly because it doesn’t control for genetics. How can you run a robust experiment without accounting for major confounds? Even more we don’t even remotely understand how those confounds work - much less be able to control for them. This is why most psych / sociological experiments are weak.
selfhifive 4y ago
That's a very one-dimensional analysis of a complex problem. You can't ignore the obvious physical differences and roles in reproduction. These factors affect how you relate to a larger society and to what extent you depend on it. The problem is not of one isolated mouse but a society of mice and how your physical size, vulnerability (men don't have period pains or pregnancies) affect how you relate to society and thus your personality.
tlb 4y ago
Yes, although our instinct to raise boys and girls differently is itself genetically programmed. Which is why all human societies do it, as well as all primates. So the origin of the difference is genetic, even if some of its influence is mediated through culture. The question of how genetics causes us to mold our children according to gender norms might be at least as interesting as the question of how genetics directly influences preferences.
belorn 4y ago
There is so many things to comment here on. There are important social problem with gender roles, but we should also recognize what the problems area are and where they aren't. Women are not a permanent lower caste. In term of their social status (and social economic status) their median are similar, even slightly higher than men. Their variance is much smaller, with few women at the very high and and very few at the very bottom. This difference in variance do causes problem for society but the fixes are less obvious than in cast societies where one demographic fully dominate the bottom of society. When looking at household social status, women have much higher in average social status than men (for the above reasons). Women are also not victims of violence more men. The opposite is true. Men are much more likely victim of violence then women. Women are much less likely however to be perpetrators of violence towards men. In term of behavior there is also the slightly less known fact that in domestic context, violence from a man to a woman, man towards an other man, and woman towards an other woman is identical in violent domestic disputes per household. This is why the full title of those reports tend to be called "men's violence again women and violence in same sex relationships". The implication in terms of genetics is that either a person sexual preference influence violence, or women and men are equally violent but in different contexts. (Edit: To pull down some statistics from Sweden as an example. Men are the most common recipient to need social support. Single men without children living below poverty line are more than twice the size of the next group below, which is single women without children living below poverty line. The group after that is single mothers, and the one after that are families with two married adults and at least one child.)
lelanthran 4y ago
> and that radical difference is generally that women are a permanent lower caste, and are victims of violence far more than they are perpetrators of violence Aren't the females of almost every first world demographic objectively better off than males in many metrics? They experience longer life, less violence, more social services, better education, more bursaries, less injuries at work, higher median income amongst the entire population, lower sentences for crime ... and more? Are those metrics not important?

newaccount74 4y ago

I remember the day that my 3 year old son took his Elsa doll to Kindergarten. I don't know what they said to him, but after that day he declared his favorite color is now black and he no longer wanted the doll. I'm sure there are some genetic sex differences, but looking at the huge difference in how society treats kids from the youngest age on, I'm going to say it's very hard to differentiate between genetic vs. society.

Throw4949 4y ago

[dead]

rajin444 4y ago

Your above exercise is silly because it doesn’t control for genetics. How can you run a robust experiment without accounting for major confounds? Even more we don’t even remotely understand how those confounds work - much less be able to control for them. This is why most psych / sociological experiments are weak.

selfhifive 4y ago

That's a very one-dimensional analysis of a complex problem. You can't ignore the obvious physical differences and roles in reproduction. These factors affect how you relate to a larger society and to what extent you depend on it. The problem is not of one isolated mouse but a society of mice and how your physical size, vulnerability (men don't have period pains or pregnancies) affect how you relate to society and thus your personality.

tlb 4y ago

Yes, although our instinct to raise boys and girls differently is itself genetically programmed. Which is why all human societies do it, as well as all primates. So the origin of the difference is genetic, even if some of its influence is mediated through culture. The question of how genetics causes us to mold our children according to gender norms might be at least as interesting as the question of how genetics directly influences preferences.

belorn 4y ago

There is so many things to comment here on. There are important social problem with gender roles, but we should also recognize what the problems area are and where they aren't. Women are not a permanent lower caste. In term of their social status (and social economic status) their median are similar, even slightly higher than men. Their variance is much smaller, with few women at the very high and and very few at the very bottom. This difference in variance do causes problem for society but the fixes are less obvious than in cast societies where one demographic fully dominate the bottom of society. When looking at household social status, women have much higher in average social status than men (for the above reasons). Women are also not victims of violence more men. The opposite is true. Men are much more likely victim of violence then women. Women are much less likely however to be perpetrators of violence towards men. In term of behavior there is also the slightly less known fact that in domestic context, violence from a man to a woman, man towards an other man, and woman towards an other woman is identical in violent domestic disputes per household. This is why the full title of those reports tend to be called "men's violence again women and violence in same sex relationships". The implication in terms of genetics is that either a person sexual preference influence violence, or women and men are equally violent but in different contexts. (Edit: To pull down some statistics from Sweden as an example. Men are the most common recipient to need social support. Single men without children living below poverty line are more than twice the size of the next group below, which is single women without children living below poverty line. The group after that is single mothers, and the one after that are families with two married adults and at least one child.)

lelanthran 4y ago

> and that radical difference is generally that women are a permanent lower caste, and are victims of violence far more than they are perpetrators of violence Aren't the females of almost every first world demographic objectively better off than males in many metrics? They experience longer life, less violence, more social services, better education, more bursaries, less injuries at work, higher median income amongst the entire population, lower sentences for crime ... and more? Are those metrics not important?