8 ms·

I'm an enthousiastic vim user. I think everyone who spends a lot if time editing text and who doesn't use vim (or similar) is probably missing out (including th

I'm an enthousiastic vim user. I think everyone who spends a lot if time editing text and who doesn't use vim (or similar) is probably missing out (including the author of this article). I think vim is really good. But I 100% agree that vim is a stupid default. In almost every context it's going to confuse more people than it makes happy.

pjmlp 4y ago
I have used VI in and out since introduced to it on Xenix in 1993. Definitely not missing out.
- giancarlostoro 4y ago
  Neovim is a different beast than vi or vim, definitely suggest looking into it. It's insanely capable, and if major IDE's invested time into supporting it, you wouldn't need to ever choose between Neovim or an IDE, you could just use both together. I think currently VS Code is the only editor that supports Neovim properly, there might be others though. The neat benefit is you get all the editors own plugins + all of Neovims plugins.
  - v3ss0n 4y ago
    Neovide is much better editor that natively supports neovim than vscode. All vim plugins in vscode have conflicts with other extension rendering them useless
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    If stuck with classical UNIX editors, I rather spend my time on Emacs. I know VI well enough to save me when nothing else is available, specially helpful when dealing with servers without root account access, and noexec $HOME, and that is good enough for me.
    - giancarlostoro 4y ago
      If Emacs ever does the headless UI thing I will crawl back to it, in all honesty. I like the idea of consistent editor key bindings across editors and consistently being able to reuse a powerful editor with any IDE.
  - Narishma 4y ago
    What does it mean for an IDE to support neovim?
    - Zvez 4y ago
      it probably means to run actual instance of neovim and use it as a backend for current editor's content.
      - giancarlostoro 4y ago
        Except you get features of both editors, so IntelliJ would still have their auto complete intellisense features, and Neovim key bindings would still work, and Neovim plugins as well.
- elsjaako 4y ago
  I know I'm not going to convince everyone, and I know that there are other advanced options that compete (people tell me I'm missing out because I don't use an IDE with all the auto complete stuff). But I see a lot of people using a text editor that's basically notepad, possibly with syntax highlighting. For an occasional edit that's fine, but if you regularly spend more than an hour editing a file, you would benefit from more features. Vim has a lot if features I don't know, so I think I'm also missing out (until I learn those features). It takes investment of time to learn an advanced tool. I'm curious, what text editor do you use?
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    IDEs of course, and if stuck on UNIX without an IDE, either Emacs (muscle memory goes back to XEmacs glory days) or VSCode. Pure text editor, Notepad++.
    - yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
      What do you think an IDE has that a proficient vim user is lacking?
giancarlostoro 4y ago
Which vim? I prefer neovim personally, but it is not my default editor. I want JetBrains to get off their butts and implement first-party support for Neovim. They would be able to fully ditch their awful vim emulator, and I'm honestly astounded they still have not done a neovim first party plugin yet, or anyone for that matter (last I looked anyway). It would solidify vim for me permanently, being able to pop it into an IDE, and going to a command line and having the same editing experiences (minus IDE witchcraft right).
- elsjaako 4y ago
  I think vim or neovim are both fine. The only reason I would caution against elvis is lack of Unicode support. They all give you most of the same interface.
  - giancarlostoro 4y ago
    I'm not referring to Elvis though, at least I don't think so: https://github.com/neovim/neovim/wiki/UI-architecture https://github.com/neovim/neovim/wiki/UI-architecture
- wankle 4y ago
  I've tried to like neovim but plain vi works best for me. I've tried to like nano too. Since you brought up JetBrains, I use no products made by them, at all, any more. I use Eclipse and I don't use a vi plugin in Eclipse. My habit is if in bash, use vi, if in an IDE (or otherwise at my Ubuntu or Windows (work...I know) desktop), use a regular type of editor. If I were young and never worked on old Korn shell systems or other old UNIX systems I'd probably not have learned vi and would be a nano user in the shell today. Summary, in my brain, shell == vi, IDE\|desktop == regular editor
  - ilyash 4y ago
    > Since you brought up JetBrains, I use no products made by them, at all, any more. Just curious. Why?
kittyn 4y ago
“because it’s not mainstream enough” sounds like a skill issue
virtualritz 4y ago
> [...] everyone [...] who doesn't use vim (or similar) is probably missing out (including the author of this article) Did you read the article? The author used both emacs and vim. Quote: "I don’t like either of them, for differing reasons: modal editing doesn’t really fit my mental model of how an editor should work, [...]" I don't get how people who like modal editing can't accept that other people don't. From my experience with editor debates this weirdly seems to be much more common than the reverse. De gustibus non est disputandum.
- tasuki 4y ago
  > I don't get how people who like modal editing can't accept that other people don't. Hi. I like modal editing and kind of can't accept that other people don't. I think they just haven't really tried, you know? In my view, it isn't a subjective matter of preference, rather I consider modal editing to be objectively superior: we have the whole keyboard at our disposal to enter commands and manipulate the text, not just tricky key combinations. Sometimes the objection to modal editing is that you need to keep an eye on which mode you're in, but in my experience. If you're doing it right, you're always in normal mode, unless inserting text. When you finish inserting text, you immediately switch to normal mode. There, I probably haven't convinced you nor anyone else, but I'm sure all the vim users are nodding along ;)
- kazinator 4y ago
  There are only two kinds of non-modal editors. 1. A useless, primitive thing in which every single keystroke inserts a character or performs an edit action, and then returns to the initial state. Typically found in the simplest edit controls offered by a windowing UI, or very simple command line editors. 2. A command-oriented editor in which every action is performed by typing a line of input, terminated by Enter to execute the command. E.g. ed, almost. This is always in a command mode, which accumulates characters until Enter, executes, and returns to command mode. If there is a mode for appending lines until . (dot) is entered on a line by itself, then that is modal. Everything else is modal. I just fired up Nano. I made some changes and quit with Ctrl-X. Lo and behold, I was dropped into a mode in which I had to type y or n to save or not. Note that the usual action of these keys is to insert the characters y or n into the buffer. I issued y, and was dropped into another mode in which the characters I typed didn't insert into the buffer, but into a prompt asking for the file name.

pjmlp 4y ago

I have used VI in and out since introduced to it on Xenix in 1993. Definitely not missing out.

giancarlostoro 4y ago
Neovim is a different beast than vi or vim, definitely suggest looking into it. It's insanely capable, and if major IDE's invested time into supporting it, you wouldn't need to ever choose between Neovim or an IDE, you could just use both together. I think currently VS Code is the only editor that supports Neovim properly, there might be others though. The neat benefit is you get all the editors own plugins + all of Neovims plugins.
- v3ss0n 4y ago
  Neovide is much better editor that natively supports neovim than vscode. All vim plugins in vscode have conflicts with other extension rendering them useless
- pjmlp 4y ago
  If stuck with classical UNIX editors, I rather spend my time on Emacs. I know VI well enough to save me when nothing else is available, specially helpful when dealing with servers without root account access, and noexec $HOME, and that is good enough for me.
  - giancarlostoro 4y ago
    If Emacs ever does the headless UI thing I will crawl back to it, in all honesty. I like the idea of consistent editor key bindings across editors and consistently being able to reuse a powerful editor with any IDE.
- Narishma 4y ago
  What does it mean for an IDE to support neovim?
  - Zvez 4y ago
    it probably means to run actual instance of neovim and use it as a backend for current editor's content.
    - giancarlostoro 4y ago
      Except you get features of both editors, so IntelliJ would still have their auto complete intellisense features, and Neovim key bindings would still work, and Neovim plugins as well.
elsjaako 4y ago
I know I'm not going to convince everyone, and I know that there are other advanced options that compete (people tell me I'm missing out because I don't use an IDE with all the auto complete stuff). But I see a lot of people using a text editor that's basically notepad, possibly with syntax highlighting. For an occasional edit that's fine, but if you regularly spend more than an hour editing a file, you would benefit from more features. Vim has a lot if features I don't know, so I think I'm also missing out (until I learn those features). It takes investment of time to learn an advanced tool. I'm curious, what text editor do you use?
- pjmlp 4y ago
  IDEs of course, and if stuck on UNIX without an IDE, either Emacs (muscle memory goes back to XEmacs glory days) or VSCode. Pure text editor, Notepad++.
  - yakshaving_jgt 4y ago
    What do you think an IDE has that a proficient vim user is lacking?

giancarlostoro 4y ago

Which vim? I prefer neovim personally, but it is not my default editor. I want JetBrains to get off their butts and implement first-party support for Neovim. They would be able to fully ditch their awful vim emulator, and I'm honestly astounded they still have not done a neovim first party plugin yet, or anyone for that matter (last I looked anyway). It would solidify vim for me permanently, being able to pop it into an IDE, and going to a command line and having the same editing experiences (minus IDE witchcraft right).

elsjaako 4y ago
I think vim or neovim are both fine. The only reason I would caution against elvis is lack of Unicode support. They all give you most of the same interface.
- giancarlostoro 4y ago
  I'm not referring to Elvis though, at least I don't think so: https://github.com/neovim/neovim/wiki/UI-architecture https://github.com/neovim/neovim/wiki/UI-architecture
wankle 4y ago
I've tried to like neovim but plain vi works best for me. I've tried to like nano too. Since you brought up JetBrains, I use no products made by them, at all, any more. I use Eclipse and I don't use a vi plugin in Eclipse. My habit is if in bash, use vi, if in an IDE (or otherwise at my Ubuntu or Windows (work...I know) desktop), use a regular type of editor. If I were young and never worked on old Korn shell systems or other old UNIX systems I'd probably not have learned vi and would be a nano user in the shell today. Summary, in my brain, shell == vi, IDE\|desktop == regular editor
- ilyash 4y ago
  > Since you brought up JetBrains, I use no products made by them, at all, any more. Just curious. Why?

kittyn 4y ago

“because it’s not mainstream enough” sounds like a skill issue

virtualritz 4y ago

> [...] everyone [...] who doesn't use vim (or similar) is probably missing out (including the author of this article) Did you read the article? The author used both emacs and vim. Quote: "I don’t like either of them, for differing reasons: modal editing doesn’t really fit my mental model of how an editor should work, [...]" I don't get how people who like modal editing can't accept that other people don't. From my experience with editor debates this weirdly seems to be much more common than the reverse. De gustibus non est disputandum.

tasuki 4y ago
> I don't get how people who like modal editing can't accept that other people don't. Hi. I like modal editing and kind of can't accept that other people don't. I think they just haven't really tried, you know? In my view, it isn't a subjective matter of preference, rather I consider modal editing to be objectively superior: we have the whole keyboard at our disposal to enter commands and manipulate the text, not just tricky key combinations. Sometimes the objection to modal editing is that you need to keep an eye on which mode you're in, but in my experience. If you're doing it right, you're always in normal mode, unless inserting text. When you finish inserting text, you immediately switch to normal mode. There, I probably haven't convinced you nor anyone else, but I'm sure all the vim users are nodding along ;)
kazinator 4y ago
There are only two kinds of non-modal editors. 1. A useless, primitive thing in which every single keystroke inserts a character or performs an edit action, and then returns to the initial state. Typically found in the simplest edit controls offered by a windowing UI, or very simple command line editors. 2. A command-oriented editor in which every action is performed by typing a line of input, terminated by Enter to execute the command. E.g. ed, almost. This is always in a command mode, which accumulates characters until Enter, executes, and returns to command mode. If there is a mode for appending lines until . (dot) is entered on a line by itself, then that is modal. Everything else is modal. I just fired up Nano. I made some changes and quit with Ctrl-X. Lo and behold, I was dropped into a mode in which I had to type y or n to save or not. Note that the usual action of these keys is to insert the characters y or n into the buffer. I issued y, and was dropped into another mode in which the characters I typed didn't insert into the buffer, but into a prompt asking for the file name.