6 ms·

Well, but what this article is stating, is that those differences you pointed out being connected to gender, are actually due to the sex of the individual, not

Well, but what this article is stating, is that those differences you pointed out being connected to gender, are actually due to the sex of the individual, not due to the gender an individual chooses to identify with.

ruszki 4y ago
Where I came from, this notion is basically non-existent. I meant sex. And also, the article didn’t state anything about gender. There is a specific footnote about this.
- moonchrome 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - ravel-bar-foo 4y ago
    You probably just met someone from a non-English culture. The sex/gender distinction is an invention of the past 20 years, and outside of the English world has probably only been picked up by people who interface with English speakers a lot (i.e. academics). I can assure you that Korean makes no distinction: the dictionary translations of the English terms are "sex" and (the full phrase) "one's feeling of one's sex."
    - moonchrome 4y ago
      My primary language is Croatian - there is a word for sex (spol) and gender (rod). First is biological second is used for grammar. But I'm just making silly comments because it read to me like he's an alien (or maybe GPT is becoming self aware and posting on forums :) )
      - Veen 4y ago
        That's how the terms sex and gender were used in English until a couple of decades ago. Gender was later coopted to refer to social and cultural factors, as opposed to biological factors, of sex.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > The sex/gender distinction is an invention of the past 20 years As a generalized concept (though descriptions of social systems with gender roles distinct from the commonly referenced sex binary are older still, though many of those written by members of societies which did not recognize such a distinctions, including Western European colonialists, were hampered by the absence of terminology to describe it simply) its significantly older than 20 years; with research projects and prominent works on gender identity, in the modern sense, being written as early as the 1950s and 1960s. While the bulk of the writing that early (and for some time after) on the subject pathologized identities that diverged from the social sex/gender correspondence stereotypes, it recognized that they existed, were largely a product of aspects of biology, and while they tended to held out that there was a social contribution to them which made them potentially malleable early on (and advised conversion therapy for that purpose), recognized that they were difficult to impossible to modify beyond early childhood, and in many cases recognized the value of gender confirming procedures beyond that point.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      Isn’t your last sentence the essential difference in English as well?
      - ravel-bar-foo 4y ago
        You may have misinderstood, and I also oversimplified. The word "sex" is translated by the main online Korean-English dictionary as 성, the local pronounciation for the classical chinese character for the category of sex, or 성별, which translates back into English again as "sex". The word "gender" is also translated as 성별, and also has an entry for [grammar] 성 구분, or the grammatical difference between sexes. However the entry under "gender dysphoria" is "feeling that one's birth sex is not one's sex." So the social role idea is totally missing from the Korean-English dictionary. The Korean-only dictionary has an entry, however, for 젠더 "jendeo," which is the imported modern Western concept of gender with all its academic usages explained in detail.
  - eldritch_4ier 4y ago
    The vast majority of human cultures across time and space don’t recognize gender in the sense you do. There’s sex, roles, personality, trends, etc but the concept of a man identifying as a woman and vice versa is a very rare one. There are European countries (most recently Switzerland) that outright reject these notions, and they were almost unheard of in the US just a mere decade ago. What seems like basic reality to you is an American fad to most everyone else.
    - moonchrome 4y ago
      I think you misunderstood me - OP wrote he doesn't have a concept of sex where he comes from. Since that's the biological term it sounded funny to me. I'm sure he meant to say gender.
      - hulitu 4y ago
        In the languages i speak gender is used in grammar, sex in biology.
      - fluoridation 4y ago
        What ruszki wrote was "where I come from, this notion is basically non-existent". It's ambiguous whether "this notion" refers to sex, gender, or the distinction between the two, but since both sex and gender are human universals, you should have inferred that "this notion" referred to the distinction.
        moonchrome 4y ago
        He literally wrote > Where I came from, this notion is basically non-existent. I meant sex.
        fluoridation 4y ago
        Those are two different and somewhat unrelated statements. First, "this notion" is unknown to them. Second, that they previously meant "sex". What does the second statement mean? Let's look at it in context: -I’ve never heard anybody who thought that there was no differences in women and men behaviours on average. -those differences you pointed out being connected to gender, are actually due to the sex of the individual, not due to the gender an individual chooses to identify with -Where I came from, this notion is basically non-existent. I meant sex. ruszki's comment expressed more verbosely would be: > This idea that sex and gender are distinguishable does not exist where I come from. Previously when I said "women and men" I was referring to the sexes, not to the genders. That is to say, to me "man" and "human male" are synonymous, as are "woman" and "human female". You had all the information necessary to interpret what was written charitable, but instead for some reason you decided to interpret it as if they were saying something nonsensical.
- wtcactus 4y ago
  Also in my language. The adjective both for identifying the sex and the gender of someone, is the same.
  - ohCh6zos 4y ago
    It was in English until yesterday, and organically in conversations it is still used that way.
- Dma54rhs 4y ago
  Many languages don't even have a word separating the idea of gender and sex.
dave4420 4y ago
Hmm, I don’t think so. It’s saying these differences are connected to sex, but it’s not saying they’re not connected gender. Didn’t the article say that research hasn’t been done? It would be interesting to see whether these differences were more or less correlated with gender rather than sex. It would also be interesting to see what differences there are between trans and cis men/women, and whether/how these change as a trans person transitions.
PartiallyTyped 4y ago
[flagged]
nullsense 4y ago
For the vast majority of the population that isn't actually concerned with that and is happy to conflate the two, doing so will produce a useful enough result given the two are synonymous enough of the time that the person isn't at risk of drawing a conclusion that maybe doesn't hold true because they forgot to consider the edge cases.

ruszki 4y ago

Where I came from, this notion is basically non-existent. I meant sex. And also, the article didn’t state anything about gender. There is a specific footnote about this.

moonchrome 4y ago
[flagged]
- ravel-bar-foo 4y ago
  You probably just met someone from a non-English culture. The sex/gender distinction is an invention of the past 20 years, and outside of the English world has probably only been picked up by people who interface with English speakers a lot (i.e. academics). I can assure you that Korean makes no distinction: the dictionary translations of the English terms are "sex" and (the full phrase) "one's feeling of one's sex."
  - moonchrome 4y ago
    My primary language is Croatian - there is a word for sex (spol) and gender (rod). First is biological second is used for grammar. But I'm just making silly comments because it read to me like he's an alien (or maybe GPT is becoming self aware and posting on forums :) )
    - Veen 4y ago
      That's how the terms sex and gender were used in English until a couple of decades ago. Gender was later coopted to refer to social and cultural factors, as opposed to biological factors, of sex.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > The sex/gender distinction is an invention of the past 20 years As a generalized concept (though descriptions of social systems with gender roles distinct from the commonly referenced sex binary are older still, though many of those written by members of societies which did not recognize such a distinctions, including Western European colonialists, were hampered by the absence of terminology to describe it simply) its significantly older than 20 years; with research projects and prominent works on gender identity, in the modern sense, being written as early as the 1950s and 1960s. While the bulk of the writing that early (and for some time after) on the subject pathologized identities that diverged from the social sex/gender correspondence stereotypes, it recognized that they existed, were largely a product of aspects of biology, and while they tended to held out that there was a social contribution to them which made them potentially malleable early on (and advised conversion therapy for that purpose), recognized that they were difficult to impossible to modify beyond early childhood, and in many cases recognized the value of gender confirming procedures beyond that point.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Isn’t your last sentence the essential difference in English as well?
    - ravel-bar-foo 4y ago
      You may have misinderstood, and I also oversimplified. The word "sex" is translated by the main online Korean-English dictionary as 성, the local pronounciation for the classical chinese character for the category of sex, or 성별, which translates back into English again as "sex". The word "gender" is also translated as 성별, and also has an entry for [grammar] 성 구분, or the grammatical difference between sexes. However the entry under "gender dysphoria" is "feeling that one's birth sex is not one's sex." So the social role idea is totally missing from the Korean-English dictionary. The Korean-only dictionary has an entry, however, for 젠더 "jendeo," which is the imported modern Western concept of gender with all its academic usages explained in detail.
- eldritch_4ier 4y ago
  The vast majority of human cultures across time and space don’t recognize gender in the sense you do. There’s sex, roles, personality, trends, etc but the concept of a man identifying as a woman and vice versa is a very rare one. There are European countries (most recently Switzerland) that outright reject these notions, and they were almost unheard of in the US just a mere decade ago. What seems like basic reality to you is an American fad to most everyone else.
  - moonchrome 4y ago
    I think you misunderstood me - OP wrote he doesn't have a concept of sex where he comes from. Since that's the biological term it sounded funny to me. I'm sure he meant to say gender.
    - hulitu 4y ago
      In the languages i speak gender is used in grammar, sex in biology.
    - fluoridation 4y ago
      What ruszki wrote was "where I come from, this notion is basically non-existent". It's ambiguous whether "this notion" refers to sex, gender, or the distinction between the two, but since both sex and gender are human universals, you should have inferred that "this notion" referred to the distinction.
      - moonchrome 4y ago
        He literally wrote > Where I came from, this notion is basically non-existent. I meant sex.
        fluoridation 4y ago
        Those are two different and somewhat unrelated statements. First, "this notion" is unknown to them. Second, that they previously meant "sex". What does the second statement mean? Let's look at it in context: -I’ve never heard anybody who thought that there was no differences in women and men behaviours on average. -those differences you pointed out being connected to gender, are actually due to the sex of the individual, not due to the gender an individual chooses to identify with -Where I came from, this notion is basically non-existent. I meant sex. ruszki's comment expressed more verbosely would be: > This idea that sex and gender are distinguishable does not exist where I come from. Previously when I said "women and men" I was referring to the sexes, not to the genders. That is to say, to me "man" and "human male" are synonymous, as are "woman" and "human female". You had all the information necessary to interpret what was written charitable, but instead for some reason you decided to interpret it as if they were saying something nonsensical.
wtcactus 4y ago
Also in my language. The adjective both for identifying the sex and the gender of someone, is the same.
- ohCh6zos 4y ago
  It was in English until yesterday, and organically in conversations it is still used that way.
Dma54rhs 4y ago
Many languages don't even have a word separating the idea of gender and sex.

dave4420 4y ago

Hmm, I don’t think so. It’s saying these differences are connected to sex, but it’s not saying they’re not connected gender. Didn’t the article say that research hasn’t been done? It would be interesting to see whether these differences were more or less correlated with gender rather than sex. It would also be interesting to see what differences there are between trans and cis men/women, and whether/how these change as a trans person transitions.

PartiallyTyped 4y ago

[flagged]

nullsense 4y ago

For the vast majority of the population that isn't actually concerned with that and is happy to conflate the two, doing so will produce a useful enough result given the two are synonymous enough of the time that the person isn't at risk of drawing a conclusion that maybe doesn't hold true because they forgot to consider the edge cases.