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> The reality is that the dealership model is a scam Having the manufacturer own the "gas stations" in a printer-ink business model might be worse.

by cma 4y ago

stcredzero 4y ago
Except, that Tesla is making the "ink" quite cheap! (Because they know that making it cheap and convenient is the best way to dominate the market.)
- falcolas 4y ago
  So did early printer manufacturers. Hooking users on cheap products to get them bought into the ecosystem, only to hike rates later, is an incredibly common business practice.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    How does that work? I don’t buy their ink and there is no requirement for me to do so.
    - danaris 4y ago
      If Tesla owns a large percentage of the charging stations—particularly ones in otherwise-underserved areas—they can hike the prices for the people who have to charge there.
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
        I wonder how many places there are with only Tesla chargers. Usually I find that an EA charger will fill gaps in the Tesla coverage out west, they're sort of complimentary. And since a Tesla can charge at a supercharger OR a CCS charger, they don't really have a lot of leverage to indiscriminately raise prices.
- emkoemko 4y ago
  Musk guaranteed $0.07 kw to charge the semi but now its $0.50 making it two times more expensive then diesel so not sure how that will dominate the market?
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Why do semi owners have to buy electricity from Musk?
    - cma 4y ago
      They can make their own charger since he opened the patents: all they have to do is agree to let Tesla have license to all of their own patents and they also agree to not copy any of Tesla's designs that aren't even covered by patent or copyright or provide "material assistance" to anyone who does. Essentially they can use the patents if they accept something stronger than patents: no copying Tesla's unpatented designs or they can go back and get you for the patent violation in perpetuity (or statute of limitations).
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
        The Semi isn't using Tesla's proprietary or NACS connector, however, it's using MCS.
    - emkoemko 4y ago
      that's what you get from that? he tells you they will guarantee $0.07 kw and that it will be cheaper then diesel to run to me this was a scam for PR and the getting people to preorder. Then we have the AI driving the trucks and in "convoys" that we now hear nothing about, yet he said it was already able to do today "2017" what we got is a truck that no one knows its weights so you can't tell how much it can move in cargo, that costs two times more to operate with a very limited range unless you want to destroy your batteries really quickly but hey they did engineer the best phone charger for it....
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
r00fus 4y ago
Analogy is a bit flawed as EV owner mostly can charge at home or work for much cheaper.
- falcolas 4y ago
  > charge at ... work I can't charge at work. I can't even plug in a block heater. I imagine most folks everywhere can't charge at work. Plus, charging at home depends heavily on the ownership of a garage. For one, power sockets (let alone charging stations) are pretty rare at most dense housing. Secondly, charging cables contain enough copper that they are rich targets for thieves. Currently, most apartment owners are not interested in providing charging stations, even if their tenants want them. The cost of putting them in and maintaining them is too high to justify it. Or the laziness quota, either/or.
  - ggreer 4y ago
    If you can't afford a house but you can afford an EV, but you also live in a high crime area where extension cords are severed for their copper, then I am very confused about your finances and living situation. In most states with high housing costs (such as California), landlords are required to let tenants install EV charging stations.[1] Also there are companies such as ChargePoint that go around to apartment complexes and sell them charging stations. The stations bring the apartment complex revenue and attract higher-end tenants. I think the concerns about charging are overrated. Yes, some landlords will drag their feet, but that's true for all tech adoption. I'm sure the same thing happened with cable TV, telephone lines, and dishwashers. The fancy places adopt the new thing first, then the average places, and finally the low-end places. 1. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140AB2565 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
    - falcolas 4y ago
      A house, with a garage, starts at $450k where I live (Montana, FWIW). A BEV can be had for under $40k. Plus rebates. And charging cable theft is like bike theft. Combine exceptionally low risk with a fairly high reward, and it will happen everywhere, no matter how “low” of a crime area you’re in. A quick application of bolt cutters nets them hundreds of dollars, and may cost the owner thousands, depending on the250 per battery. Now imagine this applied to charging cables with their excess of copper and data lines and occasionally cooling jackets. Downplay the problems as you like, but they are problems.
ggreer 4y ago
As others have mentioned, most charging is done at home. EVs can plug into many types of outlets. You can even charge off a standard 120V 15A plug (albeit slowly). For fast charging on road trips, Teslas can get CCS adapters and charge at competing stations. (Although considering the current state of Electrify America, I don't know why anyone would do that.) Also Tesla is starting to open their chargers to non-Teslas. Charging is becoming a commodity. The main advantages of the Supercharger network are reliability and integration with the car's built-in trip planning. In the long term, Tesla's Superchargers will be like Apple's AirPods: compatible with pretty much everything, but nicer for those who use the company's other products.

> The reality is that the dealership model is a scam Having the manufacturer own the "gas stations" in a printer-ink business model might be worse.

by cma 4y ago

> The reality is that the dealership model is a scam Having the manufacturer own the "gas stations" in a printer-ink business model might be worse.

stcredzero 4y ago

Except, that Tesla is making the "ink" quite cheap! (Because they know that making it cheap and convenient is the best way to dominate the market.)

falcolas 4y ago
So did early printer manufacturers. Hooking users on cheap products to get them bought into the ecosystem, only to hike rates later, is an incredibly common business practice.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  How does that work? I don’t buy their ink and there is no requirement for me to do so.
  - danaris 4y ago
    If Tesla owns a large percentage of the charging stations—particularly ones in otherwise-underserved areas—they can hike the prices for the people who have to charge there.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      I wonder how many places there are with only Tesla chargers. Usually I find that an EA charger will fill gaps in the Tesla coverage out west, they're sort of complimentary. And since a Tesla can charge at a supercharger OR a CCS charger, they don't really have a lot of leverage to indiscriminately raise prices.
emkoemko 4y ago
Musk guaranteed $0.07 kw to charge the semi but now its $0.50 making it two times more expensive then diesel so not sure how that will dominate the market?
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Why do semi owners have to buy electricity from Musk?
  - cma 4y ago
    They can make their own charger since he opened the patents: all they have to do is agree to let Tesla have license to all of their own patents and they also agree to not copy any of Tesla's designs that aren't even covered by patent or copyright or provide "material assistance" to anyone who does. Essentially they can use the patents if they accept something stronger than patents: no copying Tesla's unpatented designs or they can go back and get you for the patent violation in perpetuity (or statute of limitations).
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      The Semi isn't using Tesla's proprietary or NACS connector, however, it's using MCS.
  - emkoemko 4y ago
    that's what you get from that? he tells you they will guarantee $0.07 kw and that it will be cheaper then diesel to run to me this was a scam for PR and the getting people to preorder. Then we have the AI driving the trucks and in "convoys" that we now hear nothing about, yet he said it was already able to do today "2017" what we got is a truck that no one knows its weights so you can't tell how much it can move in cargo, that costs two times more to operate with a very limited range unless you want to destroy your batteries really quickly but hey they did engineer the best phone charger for it....
    - rootusrootus 4y ago

r00fus 4y ago

Analogy is a bit flawed as EV owner mostly can charge at home or work for much cheaper.

falcolas 4y ago
> charge at ... work I can't charge at work. I can't even plug in a block heater. I imagine most folks everywhere can't charge at work. Plus, charging at home depends heavily on the ownership of a garage. For one, power sockets (let alone charging stations) are pretty rare at most dense housing. Secondly, charging cables contain enough copper that they are rich targets for thieves. Currently, most apartment owners are not interested in providing charging stations, even if their tenants want them. The cost of putting them in and maintaining them is too high to justify it. Or the laziness quota, either/or.
- ggreer 4y ago
  If you can't afford a house but you can afford an EV, but you also live in a high crime area where extension cords are severed for their copper, then I am very confused about your finances and living situation. In most states with high housing costs (such as California), landlords are required to let tenants install EV charging stations.[1] Also there are companies such as ChargePoint that go around to apartment complexes and sell them charging stations. The stations bring the apartment complex revenue and attract higher-end tenants. I think the concerns about charging are overrated. Yes, some landlords will drag their feet, but that's true for all tech adoption. I'm sure the same thing happened with cable TV, telephone lines, and dishwashers. The fancy places adopt the new thing first, then the average places, and finally the low-end places. 1. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140AB2565 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
  - falcolas 4y ago
    A house, with a garage, starts at $450k where I live (Montana, FWIW). A BEV can be had for under $40k. Plus rebates. And charging cable theft is like bike theft. Combine exceptionally low risk with a fairly high reward, and it will happen everywhere, no matter how “low” of a crime area you’re in. A quick application of bolt cutters nets them hundreds of dollars, and may cost the owner thousands, depending on the250 per battery. Now imagine this applied to charging cables with their excess of copper and data lines and occasionally cooling jackets. Downplay the problems as you like, but they are problems.

ggreer 4y ago

As others have mentioned, most charging is done at home. EVs can plug into many types of outlets. You can even charge off a standard 120V 15A plug (albeit slowly). For fast charging on road trips, Teslas can get CCS adapters and charge at competing stations. (Although considering the current state of Electrify America, I don't know why anyone would do that.) Also Tesla is starting to open their chargers to non-Teslas. Charging is becoming a commodity. The main advantages of the Supercharger network are reliability and integration with the car's built-in trip planning. In the long term, Tesla's Superchargers will be like Apple's AirPods: compatible with pretty much everything, but nicer for those who use the company's other products.