3 ms·

I think you're giving American leadership way too much credit.

by bloppe 4y ago

eternalban 4y ago
I don't think you parsed the comment correctly. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/991680.The_Anglo_American_Establishment https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/991680.The_Anglo_America... https://archive.org/details/pdfy-A7-BNmZpG-RLOXZZ https://archive.org/details/pdfy-A7-BNmZpG-RLOXZZ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley -- preface snippet (1981) --- The Rhodes Scholarships, established by the terms of Cecil Rhodes's seventh will, are known to everyone. What is not so widely known is that Rhodes in five previous wills left his fortune to form a secret society, which was to devote itself to the preservation and expansion of the British Empire. And what does not seem to be known to anyone is that this secret society was created by Rhodes and his principal trustee, Lord Milner, and continues to exist to this day. To be sure, this secret society is not a childish thing like the Ku Klux Klan, and it does not have any secret robes, secret handclasps, or secret passwords. It does not need any of these, since its members know each other intimately. It probably has no oaths of secrecy nor any formal procedure of initiation. It does, however, exist and holds secret meetings, over which the senior member present presides. At various times since 1891, these meetings have been presided over by Rhodes, Lord Milner, Lord Selborne, Sir Patrick Duncan, Field Marshal Jan Smuts, Lord Lothian, and Lord Brand. They have been held in all the British Dominions, starting in South Africa about 1903; in various places in London, chiefly 175 Piccadilly; at various colleges at Oxford, chiefly All Souls; and at many English country houses such as Tring Park, Blickling Hall, Cliveden, and others. This society has been known at various times as Milner's Kindergarten, as the Round Table Group, as the Rhodes crowd, as The Times crowd, as the All Souls group, and as the Cliveden set. All of these terms are unsatisfactory, for one reason or another, and I have chosen to call it the Milner Group. Those persons who have used the other terms, or heard them used, have not generally been aware that all these various terms referred to the same Group. It is not easy for an outsider to write the history of a secret group of this kind, but, since no insider is going to do it, an outsider must attempt it. It should be done, for this Group is, as I shall show, one of the most important historical facts of the twentieth century. Indeed, the Group is of such significance that evidence of its existence is not hard to find, if one knows where to look. This evidence I have sought to point out without overly burdening this volume with footnotes and bibliographical references. While such evidences of scholarship are kept at a minimum, I believe I have given the source of every fact which I mention. Some of these facts came to me from sources which I am not permitted to name, and I have mentioned them only where I can produce documentary evidence available to everyone. Nevertheless, it would have been very difficult to write this book if I had not received a certain amount of assistance of a personal nature from persons close to the Group. For obvious reasons, I cannot reveal the names of such persons, so I have not made reference to any information derived from them unless it was information readily available from other sources. ... I should say a few words about my general attitude toward this subject. I approached the subject as a historian. This attitude I have kept. I have tried to describe or to analyze, not to praise or to condemn. I hope that in the book itself this attitude is maintained. Of course I have an attitude, and it would be only fair to state it here. In general, I agree with the goals and aims of the Milner Group. I feel that the British way of life and the British Commonwealth of Nations are among the great achievements of all history. I feel that the destruction of either of them would be a terrible disaster to mankind. ...
- bloppe 4y ago
  Sounds to me like a highly ineffective secret society, given the slow but steady decline of Anglo-American hegemony since the cold war.
  - eternalban 4y ago
    Ineffective is an ungenerous appraisal, when we consider what the world looked like mid 19th century when this project got started, and how it does now. They were quite effective up to the demise of USSR. The entire world speaks English. William Engdahl's book Gods of Money [ch. 18 - Theft of a Nation] addresses the period you mention and what was happening. There was also an ideological shift in this period, since after the end of Cold War, Neo-Conservatives have been (and remain) in ideological charge. The Wolfowitz Doctrine always struck me as decidedly un-Anglo given its willfully provocative stance, lacking any nuance or subtlety. In fact the behavior of US post Cold War remains somewhat perplexing, even in terms of purely American national interests. There may have been a regime change. https://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/08/world/us-strategy-plan-calls-for-insuring-no-rivals-develop.html https://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/08/world/us-strategy-plan-ca...
    - bloppe 4y ago
      In the mid 19th century, the British Empire was peaking as the largest empire in history. It was a long road to get to that point, and this secret society was created as the Empire was just beginning its decline. The 20th century saw the rise of American military, economic, and cultural imperialism, which carried Anglo-American culture further as the British Empire declined relatively. Sure, I'll concede that there are shady people in government trying to do things that are broadly objectionable and sometimes illegal, but to think this means certain individuals or secret societies have a "stranglehold" on global politics or economics goes much too far. There are far too many factors at play for a small group of people to wield the level of outsize power necessary to guide these processes. It's really a very large and ever-changing group of people who "control everything", and this happens in a highly uncoordinated manner.

I think you're giving American leadership way too much credit.

by bloppe 4y ago

I think you're giving American leadership way too much credit.

I don't think you parsed the comment correctly. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/991680.The_Anglo_American_Establishment https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/991680.The_Anglo_America... https://archive.org/details/pdfy-A7-BNmZpG-RLOXZZ https://archive.org/details/pdfy-A7-BNmZpG-RLOXZZ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley -- preface snippet (1981) --- The Rhodes Scholarships, established by the terms of Cecil Rhodes's seventh will, are known to everyone. What is not so widely known is that Rhodes in five previous wills left his fortune to form a secret society, which was to devote itself to the preservation and expansion of the British Empire. And what does not seem to be known to anyone is that this secret society was created by Rhodes and his principal trustee, Lord Milner, and continues to exist to this day. To be sure, this secret society is not a childish thing like the Ku Klux Klan, and it does not have any secret robes, secret handclasps, or secret passwords. It does not need any of these, since its members know each other intimately. It probably has no oaths of secrecy nor any formal procedure of initiation. It does, however, exist and holds secret meetings, over which the senior member present presides. At various times since 1891, these meetings have been presided over by Rhodes, Lord Milner, Lord Selborne, Sir Patrick Duncan, Field Marshal Jan Smuts, Lord Lothian, and Lord Brand. They have been held in all the British Dominions, starting in South Africa about 1903; in various places in London, chiefly 175 Piccadilly; at various colleges at Oxford, chiefly All Souls; and at many English country houses such as Tring Park, Blickling Hall, Cliveden, and others. This society has been known at various times as Milner's Kindergarten, as the Round Table Group, as the Rhodes crowd, as The Times crowd, as the All Souls group, and as the Cliveden set. All of these terms are unsatisfactory, for one reason or another, and I have chosen to call it the Milner Group. Those persons who have used the other terms, or heard them used, have not generally been aware that all these various terms referred to the same Group. It is not easy for an outsider to write the history of a secret group of this kind, but, since no insider is going to do it, an outsider must attempt it. It should be done, for this Group is, as I shall show, one of the most important historical facts of the twentieth century. Indeed, the Group is of such significance that evidence of its existence is not hard to find, if one knows where to look. This evidence I have sought to point out without overly burdening this volume with footnotes and bibliographical references. While such evidences of scholarship are kept at a minimum, I believe I have given the source of every fact which I mention. Some of these facts came to me from sources which I am not permitted to name, and I have mentioned them only where I can produce documentary evidence available to everyone. Nevertheless, it would have been very difficult to write this book if I had not received a certain amount of assistance of a personal nature from persons close to the Group. For obvious reasons, I cannot reveal the names of such persons, so I have not made reference to any information derived from them unless it was information readily available from other sources. ... I should say a few words about my general attitude toward this subject. I approached the subject as a historian. This attitude I have kept. I have tried to describe or to analyze, not to praise or to condemn. I hope that in the book itself this attitude is maintained. Of course I have an attitude, and it would be only fair to state it here. In general, I agree with the goals and aims of the Milner Group. I feel that the British way of life and the British Commonwealth of Nations are among the great achievements of all history. I feel that the destruction of either of them would be a terrible disaster to mankind. ...

bloppe 4y ago
Sounds to me like a highly ineffective secret society, given the slow but steady decline of Anglo-American hegemony since the cold war.
- eternalban 4y ago
  Ineffective is an ungenerous appraisal, when we consider what the world looked like mid 19th century when this project got started, and how it does now. They were quite effective up to the demise of USSR. The entire world speaks English. William Engdahl's book Gods of Money [ch. 18 - Theft of a Nation] addresses the period you mention and what was happening. There was also an ideological shift in this period, since after the end of Cold War, Neo-Conservatives have been (and remain) in ideological charge. The Wolfowitz Doctrine always struck me as decidedly un-Anglo given its willfully provocative stance, lacking any nuance or subtlety. In fact the behavior of US post Cold War remains somewhat perplexing, even in terms of purely American national interests. There may have been a regime change. https://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/08/world/us-strategy-plan-calls-for-insuring-no-rivals-develop.html https://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/08/world/us-strategy-plan-ca...
  - bloppe 4y ago
    In the mid 19th century, the British Empire was peaking as the largest empire in history. It was a long road to get to that point, and this secret society was created as the Empire was just beginning its decline. The 20th century saw the rise of American military, economic, and cultural imperialism, which carried Anglo-American culture further as the British Empire declined relatively. Sure, I'll concede that there are shady people in government trying to do things that are broadly objectionable and sometimes illegal, but to think this means certain individuals or secret societies have a "stranglehold" on global politics or economics goes much too far. There are far too many factors at play for a small group of people to wield the level of outsize power necessary to guide these processes. It's really a very large and ever-changing group of people who "control everything", and this happens in a highly uncoordinated manner.