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Probably the most interesting part of this is if states don’t integrate by 2027 they will no longer be eligible for the Visa Waiver Program (VWP). That adds a l

Probably the most interesting part of this is if states don’t integrate by 2027 they will no longer be eligible for the Visa Waiver Program (VWP). That adds a lot of friction for citizens of that state to travel to the U.S. for any reason.

exitheone 4y ago
As a regular US traveler, I'm ok with that if the alternative is handing over EU citizens data to a known bad actor.
- nixgeek 4y ago
  I mean it sounds like you’d be giving up all the same data just through a slower process. From the presentation: For all travellers (and asylum seekers) before entry into USA Hit/ No hit query of the foreign databases On hit: retrieval of existing data record in pull procedure A part of visa issuance by a U.S. Embassy is a background check against both US databases and those of the local country. I believe all visa appointments perform digital capture of fingerprints, face, along with anything on an e-Passport. So this gets the U.S. nearer to equivalence in VWP with what they can already do with the visa processes? If you don’t want the U.S. to hold your biometric information it sounds like you just won’t be traveling to that country any longer.
  - jalk 4y ago
    Exactly and you shouldn’t have traveled to the US after 2007 if the biometrics was your concern. Fingerprints and photo have been captured by the immigration officer at the port of entry, regardless of visa type, since that time. Received a long term B1 visa in 2011, after going to the embassy and had the biometrics taken. Reapplied in July 2022, and was able to get a waiver for the in-person interview, as the embassy still had my biometrics (my travel would have been delayed by several months otherwise) So the change is the “watch list” lookup / handover of records for hits. Hate to be in the camp saying that “if you haven’t done anything wrong you have nothing to worry about” but I honestly assumed that those checks were already done.
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
So what? If the rules are the same for all eu countries and with reciprocity, then the US will be isolated, and any eu-us business will be harder to do, and EU will do more trade with other countries, which also won't give biometric data to US, and US will be locked out of them too.
- nixgeek 4y ago
  Sure, but you’re going to disclose all of the same biometric and criminal database information should you then do the U.S. visa application, so this does nothing to improve your privacy or stop the U.S. having this information. You need to travel to the U.S. with these changes? You still use ESTA and VWP, and the U.S. pulls what they need via an IT integration. You need to travel to the U.S. and these changes get a “No” from EU states? You go through the visa process for tourism or business, they get your biometrics and background checks through that process. It takes longer. It costs more money. It is more onerous to you as an applicant. Every time you cross the border as an alien you are fingerprinted and photos are taken (exceptions are given for diplomats). In short, it’s the same outcome for U.S. travel and your only way to stop the U.S. having this information is to not travel there…
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    If you don't travel to usa, they don't get this data. Their country, their rules,... if they only let other countries alone, the world would be a lot nicer place.
pydry 4y ago
The EU should reciprocate on that threat. $350 and a minimum six month wait for an appointment at an EU consulate if a congressperson wants to vacation in Italy.
- bombolo 4y ago
  They'd just come on an official visit to one of their navy bases in italy.
cm2187 4y ago
To be honest I am already avoiding to travel to the US as much as I can. No appetite for hours of queues at security and passport controls. Their airports are worst than many third world countries.
- nixgeek 4y ago
  The U.S. has been expanding eligibility for Global Entry over the last decade. No idea where you live but: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-entry/eligibility https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-... This also gives you TSA Pre. It’s cut my average time spent queuing in U.S. airports and at the border by an order of magnitude. Worth the effort.
  - aetherane 4y ago
    Global entry is unavailable to foreigners from many countries, even long term visa holders
- orangepurple 4y ago
  Visitor queue are typically miniscule if you are flying in from Europe
  - nixgeek 4y ago
    It varies massively by airport and by time of year, and you just go into “Non U.S. Citizens and Permanent Residents” (there’s almost never a “Europe” line). On airports, there are a set of U.S. airports like Los Angeles which always seem to have long queues, and a few where CBP is more prone to asking 20 questions of everyone. On times of year, visiting cities when a big convention is happening can be much slower, as can traveling near a holiday like Thanksgiving. I’ve witnessed and stood in a 3 hour queue at San Francisco and that was my #1 motivator to go get Global Entry sorted.
- omgomgomgomg 4y ago
  I remember when I went to the UK for the first time, I knew the language, but was never confronted live with a London accent. I did not know the postal code system(every little borough out there belongs to London, but has zones and postal codes) , nor did I know the public transport options. I simply went there to visit a friend which had moved there, that is all. So just before the transit area after coming off the plane, a ginger and a brown haired fellow stopped me and started asking questions, without showing a badge or identifying themselves. They were plain clothed officers, guessing they are police was rather easy, they had very bad choice of çlothing style. So they ask where are you going and why. Purpose of stay and lenght, how will you get there and blabla, many follow up questions. Do you have a return ticket, whats her name. I told them, thats your job to find out and I intend to travel by cab, am I good to go now. They let me go on my way. This is the kinda people who will be dealing with our data, hell no. I will fill out whatever if I ever wanna go to the us, but I prefer to not hand over any data upfront.
tigerlily 4y ago
Heh, the VWP already has a tiny bit of friction built in - you need a credit card to complete the application For the ESTA.

exitheone 4y ago

As a regular US traveler, I'm ok with that if the alternative is handing over EU citizens data to a known bad actor.

nixgeek 4y ago
I mean it sounds like you’d be giving up all the same data just through a slower process. From the presentation: For all travellers (and asylum seekers) before entry into USA Hit/ No hit query of the foreign databases On hit: retrieval of existing data record in pull procedure A part of visa issuance by a U.S. Embassy is a background check against both US databases and those of the local country. I believe all visa appointments perform digital capture of fingerprints, face, along with anything on an e-Passport. So this gets the U.S. nearer to equivalence in VWP with what they can already do with the visa processes? If you don’t want the U.S. to hold your biometric information it sounds like you just won’t be traveling to that country any longer.
- jalk 4y ago
  Exactly and you shouldn’t have traveled to the US after 2007 if the biometrics was your concern. Fingerprints and photo have been captured by the immigration officer at the port of entry, regardless of visa type, since that time. Received a long term B1 visa in 2011, after going to the embassy and had the biometrics taken. Reapplied in July 2022, and was able to get a waiver for the in-person interview, as the embassy still had my biometrics (my travel would have been delayed by several months otherwise) So the change is the “watch list” lookup / handover of records for hits. Hate to be in the camp saying that “if you haven’t done anything wrong you have nothing to worry about” but I honestly assumed that those checks were already done.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

So what? If the rules are the same for all eu countries and with reciprocity, then the US will be isolated, and any eu-us business will be harder to do, and EU will do more trade with other countries, which also won't give biometric data to US, and US will be locked out of them too.

nixgeek 4y ago
Sure, but you’re going to disclose all of the same biometric and criminal database information should you then do the U.S. visa application, so this does nothing to improve your privacy or stop the U.S. having this information. You need to travel to the U.S. with these changes? You still use ESTA and VWP, and the U.S. pulls what they need via an IT integration. You need to travel to the U.S. and these changes get a “No” from EU states? You go through the visa process for tourism or business, they get your biometrics and background checks through that process. It takes longer. It costs more money. It is more onerous to you as an applicant. Every time you cross the border as an alien you are fingerprinted and photos are taken (exceptions are given for diplomats). In short, it’s the same outcome for U.S. travel and your only way to stop the U.S. having this information is to not travel there…
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  If you don't travel to usa, they don't get this data. Their country, their rules,... if they only let other countries alone, the world would be a lot nicer place.

pydry 4y ago

The EU should reciprocate on that threat. $350 and a minimum six month wait for an appointment at an EU consulate if a congressperson wants to vacation in Italy.

bombolo 4y ago
They'd just come on an official visit to one of their navy bases in italy.

cm2187 4y ago

To be honest I am already avoiding to travel to the US as much as I can. No appetite for hours of queues at security and passport controls. Their airports are worst than many third world countries.

nixgeek 4y ago
The U.S. has been expanding eligibility for Global Entry over the last decade. No idea where you live but: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-entry/eligibility https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-... This also gives you TSA Pre. It’s cut my average time spent queuing in U.S. airports and at the border by an order of magnitude. Worth the effort.
- aetherane 4y ago
  Global entry is unavailable to foreigners from many countries, even long term visa holders
orangepurple 4y ago
Visitor queue are typically miniscule if you are flying in from Europe
- nixgeek 4y ago
  It varies massively by airport and by time of year, and you just go into “Non U.S. Citizens and Permanent Residents” (there’s almost never a “Europe” line). On airports, there are a set of U.S. airports like Los Angeles which always seem to have long queues, and a few where CBP is more prone to asking 20 questions of everyone. On times of year, visiting cities when a big convention is happening can be much slower, as can traveling near a holiday like Thanksgiving. I’ve witnessed and stood in a 3 hour queue at San Francisco and that was my #1 motivator to go get Global Entry sorted.
omgomgomgomg 4y ago
I remember when I went to the UK for the first time, I knew the language, but was never confronted live with a London accent. I did not know the postal code system(every little borough out there belongs to London, but has zones and postal codes) , nor did I know the public transport options. I simply went there to visit a friend which had moved there, that is all. So just before the transit area after coming off the plane, a ginger and a brown haired fellow stopped me and started asking questions, without showing a badge or identifying themselves. They were plain clothed officers, guessing they are police was rather easy, they had very bad choice of çlothing style. So they ask where are you going and why. Purpose of stay and lenght, how will you get there and blabla, many follow up questions. Do you have a return ticket, whats her name. I told them, thats your job to find out and I intend to travel by cab, am I good to go now. They let me go on my way. This is the kinda people who will be dealing with our data, hell no. I will fill out whatever if I ever wanna go to the us, but I prefer to not hand over any data upfront.

tigerlily 4y ago

Heh, the VWP already has a tiny bit of friction built in - you need a credit card to complete the application For the ESTA.