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I think it is vital we continue to discuss it here, but at the same time my conversations with my extended family show that people overall do not share my conce

I think it is vital we continue to discuss it here, but at the same time my conversations with my extended family show that people overall do not share my concerns over these at all. I do not get upset, because coming from a former soviet union country, I am trying hard to understand their frame of mind ( partially to see if there is a way to counter it ) and lot of it seems to a result from a deep trust in the system. In fact, just yesterday, the related conversation resulted in and I am paraphrasing 'you need to let go of some control and trust the system.' I will never understand this level of trust in your own government institutions.

jylam 4y ago
It's not even your own government institutions, it's another totally separate government asking for your biometric data.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  Disclaimer: I’m totally against any normalization of the collection/sharing of biometric data. But just to play Devil’s Advocate: Let’s say I’m a boring white midwestern HVAC contractor with a mortgage and 2.5 kids. Big Bad China acquires a picture of my face and my fingerprints. Also my DNA, why not, just for argument’s sake! I never plan to visit China. How does this biometric sharing affect me, my rights, my safety, monetarily or otherwise? Connect the dots for me because it’s hard for me to argue the privacy angle if I can’t even explain the danger of a simple scenario like this.
  - mach1ne 4y ago
    Write some anti-CCP stuff on social media, become randomly targeted by China's "Magic Methods". Whole lot easier when they have your biometric data.
  - robin_reala 4y ago
    The typical counter argument goes something like China installs a webcam in your bathroom and broadcasts the stream on purely national TV. How does that affect you? It’s just some personal video that’s never going impinge on your life. Another way of putting it: all personal information should by default be kept private, until there’s a specific need from you for that information to be processed by known people.
    - sneak 4y ago
      This doesn't actually answer the question, though, as people value their home interior video privacy a lot more than they value their biometric privacy.
  - lodovic 4y ago
    There are lots of scenarios. - Your data could be sold by China to your insurer. - Or they could buy your insurer and use the information they have on you. - They could use it for some corporate espionage. - Perhaps you or your boss need to be convinced that you should sell Chinese HVAC equipment instead of Korean. - Maybe one of your kids will get married to someone from China and you have been critical of their government online. They may visit China and be punished for that.
  - consumer451 4y ago
    > Disclaimer: I’m totally against any normalization of the collection/sharing of biometric data. But just to play Devil’s Advocate: > Let’s say I’m a boring white midwestern HVAC contractor with a mortgage and 2.5 kids. Big Bad China acquires a picture of my face and my fingerprints. 1) If you cannot imagine the potential problems, then why do you believe the contents of your disclaimer? 2) Let's say you are not "a boring white midwestern HVAC contractor"
  - cesarb 4y ago
    The problem with a totally separate government having your data, is that they are not bound by your government's laws. What prevents a foreign government from selling your data to private entities, which then resell these data to criminals? Or, a more likely scenario, said foreign government isn't as careful about vetting who has access to that kind of data (because they don't have the GDPR there), leading to criminals from your own country getting access to it? That is: even if you never plan to visit the remote country in question, the data can come back to your country (or a third country you might want to visit). And it might not even get there intact: what happens if your fingerprints get mislabeled as someone else's?
hotz 4y ago
It's mindblowing that people aren't bothered by it.
- larsrc 4y ago
  We're bothered, but maybe not enough to do away with visiting family/friends/coworkers/conferences/cons/national parks/etc. Also having various privileges (white, Western European, male, middle class, etc) dulls the concerns.
prottog 4y ago
I very much share your concern and frustration, but even I take convenience over principle in some matters. I happily use TSA PreCheck, despite hating the fact that you have to put yourself on a government list to restore a level of dignity while traveling that the same government took away in the first place. It's a constant struggle with a lot to sacrifice for your principles. See Richard Stallman for an example of someone who no doubt endures many inconveniences in his life in his ardent avoidance of nonfree software.
- nixgeek 4y ago
  Global Entry and TSA Pre probably saved me >100 hours of queuing in the last 3-5 years, and I imagine I’d also have missed a handful of flights had I needed to endure the regular checkpoint queues in order to make a tight connection. It’s definitely a concern for me too, but like you, convenience trumps principle sometimes and travel is already unpleasant enough that “taking a stand” and making travel more unpleasant (including being an “Opt Out” at checkpoints and making the TSA do a pat down) isn’t something I’ve been willing to do. Likewise, this will become a mandatory integration for states to participate in VWP starting in 2027, and there is a LOT of additional burden for those states citizens in having to apply for and be granted a U.S. visa over and above just using ESTA - paperwork, >= 10x filing fees, an Embassy or Consulate visit, then getting your passport (collection) after the visa has been inserted. Plus at the end of the day the U.S. is getting all the same information via the slower process. I would guess most European states will integrate and this will be short-lived indignation (a “storm in a teacup”) followed by it being the new normal.
  - landemva 4y ago
    > convenience trumps principle There it is. We make our choices and our children live with the consequences. I have always opted out of TSA body scans and have been a 100k flier. Frequent fliers know which cattle lanes to use for no scans. Arrive a few minutes early and they even wipe your hands with a cloth and let you know if your hands are dirty.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
patrec 4y ago
Well, you could try mentioning that Turkey managed to leak the personal data of more or less its entire adult population (50M people or so; https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/04/database-allegedly-containing-id-numbers-of-50m-turks-posted-online https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/04/database-...). Or, maybe closer to home, that several European states were complicit in helping the US to kidnap, torture and imprison their innocent citizens (the euphemism for accidentally kidnapping and torturing some completely random person is "erroneous rendition" https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna10618427 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna10618427). Both the US and European allies went through great pains and costs to provide the Taliban with detail biometric data for kill lists https://theconversation.com/the-taliban-reportedly-have-control-of-us-biometric-devices-a-lesson-in-life-and-death-consequences-of-data-privacy-166465 https://theconversation.com/the-taliban-reportedly-have-cont.... For just $68 you can even get the collector's edition on ebay, which includes not just lots of biometric and personal data but also comes with the original capture device (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/technology/for-sale-on-ebay-a-military-database-of-fingerprints-and-iris-scans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/technology/for-sale-on-eb...).

jylam 4y ago

It's not even your own government institutions, it's another totally separate government asking for your biometric data.

ryandrake 4y ago
Disclaimer: I’m totally against any normalization of the collection/sharing of biometric data. But just to play Devil’s Advocate: Let’s say I’m a boring white midwestern HVAC contractor with a mortgage and 2.5 kids. Big Bad China acquires a picture of my face and my fingerprints. Also my DNA, why not, just for argument’s sake! I never plan to visit China. How does this biometric sharing affect me, my rights, my safety, monetarily or otherwise? Connect the dots for me because it’s hard for me to argue the privacy angle if I can’t even explain the danger of a simple scenario like this.
- mach1ne 4y ago
  Write some anti-CCP stuff on social media, become randomly targeted by China's "Magic Methods". Whole lot easier when they have your biometric data.
- robin_reala 4y ago
  The typical counter argument goes something like China installs a webcam in your bathroom and broadcasts the stream on purely national TV. How does that affect you? It’s just some personal video that’s never going impinge on your life. Another way of putting it: all personal information should by default be kept private, until there’s a specific need from you for that information to be processed by known people.
  - sneak 4y ago
    This doesn't actually answer the question, though, as people value their home interior video privacy a lot more than they value their biometric privacy.
- lodovic 4y ago
  There are lots of scenarios. - Your data could be sold by China to your insurer. - Or they could buy your insurer and use the information they have on you. - They could use it for some corporate espionage. - Perhaps you or your boss need to be convinced that you should sell Chinese HVAC equipment instead of Korean. - Maybe one of your kids will get married to someone from China and you have been critical of their government online. They may visit China and be punished for that.
- consumer451 4y ago
  > Disclaimer: I’m totally against any normalization of the collection/sharing of biometric data. But just to play Devil’s Advocate: > Let’s say I’m a boring white midwestern HVAC contractor with a mortgage and 2.5 kids. Big Bad China acquires a picture of my face and my fingerprints. 1) If you cannot imagine the potential problems, then why do you believe the contents of your disclaimer? 2) Let's say you are not "a boring white midwestern HVAC contractor"
- cesarb 4y ago
  The problem with a totally separate government having your data, is that they are not bound by your government's laws. What prevents a foreign government from selling your data to private entities, which then resell these data to criminals? Or, a more likely scenario, said foreign government isn't as careful about vetting who has access to that kind of data (because they don't have the GDPR there), leading to criminals from your own country getting access to it? That is: even if you never plan to visit the remote country in question, the data can come back to your country (or a third country you might want to visit). And it might not even get there intact: what happens if your fingerprints get mislabeled as someone else's?

hotz 4y ago

It's mindblowing that people aren't bothered by it.

larsrc 4y ago
We're bothered, but maybe not enough to do away with visiting family/friends/coworkers/conferences/cons/national parks/etc. Also having various privileges (white, Western European, male, middle class, etc) dulls the concerns.

prottog 4y ago

I very much share your concern and frustration, but even I take convenience over principle in some matters. I happily use TSA PreCheck, despite hating the fact that you have to put yourself on a government list to restore a level of dignity while traveling that the same government took away in the first place. It's a constant struggle with a lot to sacrifice for your principles. See Richard Stallman for an example of someone who no doubt endures many inconveniences in his life in his ardent avoidance of nonfree software.

nixgeek 4y ago
Global Entry and TSA Pre probably saved me >100 hours of queuing in the last 3-5 years, and I imagine I’d also have missed a handful of flights had I needed to endure the regular checkpoint queues in order to make a tight connection. It’s definitely a concern for me too, but like you, convenience trumps principle sometimes and travel is already unpleasant enough that “taking a stand” and making travel more unpleasant (including being an “Opt Out” at checkpoints and making the TSA do a pat down) isn’t something I’ve been willing to do. Likewise, this will become a mandatory integration for states to participate in VWP starting in 2027, and there is a LOT of additional burden for those states citizens in having to apply for and be granted a U.S. visa over and above just using ESTA - paperwork, >= 10x filing fees, an Embassy or Consulate visit, then getting your passport (collection) after the visa has been inserted. Plus at the end of the day the U.S. is getting all the same information via the slower process. I would guess most European states will integrate and this will be short-lived indignation (a “storm in a teacup”) followed by it being the new normal.
- landemva 4y ago
  > convenience trumps principle There it is. We make our choices and our children live with the consequences. I have always opted out of TSA body scans and have been a 100k flier. Frequent fliers know which cattle lanes to use for no scans. Arrive a few minutes early and they even wipe your hands with a cloth and let you know if your hands are dirty.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

patrec 4y ago

Well, you could try mentioning that Turkey managed to leak the personal data of more or less its entire adult population (50M people or so; https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/04/database-allegedly-containing-id-numbers-of-50m-turks-posted-online https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/04/database-...). Or, maybe closer to home, that several European states were complicit in helping the US to kidnap, torture and imprison their innocent citizens (the euphemism for accidentally kidnapping and torturing some completely random person is "erroneous rendition" https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna10618427 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna10618427). Both the US and European allies went through great pains and costs to provide the Taliban with detail biometric data for kill lists https://theconversation.com/the-taliban-reportedly-have-control-of-us-biometric-devices-a-lesson-in-life-and-death-consequences-of-data-privacy-166465 https://theconversation.com/the-taliban-reportedly-have-cont.... For just $68 you can even get the collector's edition on ebay, which includes not just lots of biometric and personal data but also comes with the original capture device (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/technology/for-sale-on-ebay-a-military-database-of-fingerprints-and-iris-scans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/technology/for-sale-on-eb...).