5 ms·

Biggest issue with disability is you cannot start working again, even as an experiment, without losing your disability. It's a lifetime disability. It should i

Biggest issue with disability is you cannot start working again, even as an experiment, without losing your disability. It's a lifetime disability. It should instead be a credit, where earning income replaces the benefit $1 for $1, but if you earn over the disability limit you don't lose your credit permanently. This would encourage disabled people to try and find jobs that they can do despite their disability without the fear of being ruined if the job doesn't pan out. Over time this would help transition the "permanently" disabled into being self-sufficient and make them feel happier and less of a burden on society. People want to feel that they have agency and contribute.

ranger47 4y ago
Hmm, this is not correct. I work as a employment specialist for individuals with developmental disabilities, and they rarely, if ever, lose SSI or SSDI if they start working, so long as they stay under certain thresholds (hours, wage and assets). We work closely with benefits counselors to figure out where the line is with each individual, then leverage our relationships with employers to help said individual hit that sweet spot where they are working as much as allowed while still able to collect. This always results in the individual making far more than just collecting disability alone, even if the payments are reduced. The idea of "all or nothing" is a myth that prevents a lot of folks on disability who want to work from doing so. If you happen to be such an individual, please reach out to a benefits counselor in your state and set up a meeting.
- adinb 4y ago
  Are you referring to Social Security benefits counselors? They are notoriously difficult to get ahold of (in NM); you have to go in person and wait in a large room for (usually) hours with several hundred people. And then what you’re told varies depending on the person.
- watersb 4y ago
  A close friend of ours tried to work part time, reported everything, worked with job counselor etc. but after six months was unable to continue work. It took her another six months to get it all straightened out. It's risky. The case was well documented, a lifetime of cerebral palsy and complications, seizures. And yet the disability benefits were very brittle.
soulofmischief 4y ago
The implementation might seem inefficient if you misunderstand the design; the system is working exactly as intended.
- Siddarth1977 4y ago
  These sorts of vague, slightly conspiratorial and cynical comments aren't helpful. "The system" isn't designed by some secret cabal of sinister tricksters who are intending it to fail specific people in specific ways. "The system" is a hodgepodge of thousands of different laws, programs, agencies and organizations under a multitude of federal, state, county and city jurisdictions and operating under rules and budgets that were approved over numerous different sets of elected and appointed individuals over decades, each of which had to strike compromises and try to work within the existing system. If you don't do enough to prevent fraud, you get a lot of fraud (see recent issues with covid payroll protection and other related measures, or homeowners insurance issues in Florida after hurricanes). If you do too much to prevent fraud, you get legitimate cases not getting the support they need. No matter what the system is, you're going to have some amount of both "false positive" and "false negative" outcomes from it.
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    To add to what you wrote: the system is also dynamic. How it works (or doesn't) today impacts how it'll look tomorrow. Interventions can be made, and they may initially improve things, and then the world at large adjusts to balance them out. It needs continuous tuning. Conversations like this are part of it too, though I admit it's frustrating to see the same problems being highlighted over and over again, for decade or more, with no improvement in sight.
  - jlarocco 4y ago
    > No matter what the system is, you're going to have some amount of both "false positive" and "false negative" outcomes from it. And don't forget the feedback loop when people see the bad outcomes and demand there should be a law...
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
scarmig 4y ago
> It should instead be a credit, where earning income replaces the benefit $1 for $1, but if you earn over the disability limit you don't lose your credit permanently. This creates a steep marginal tax rate (100%), which still results in a disincentive to work. It should be a more gradual phase out.
- bobkazamakis 4y ago
  >This creates a steep marginal tax rate (100%), which still results in a disincentive to work. ? This is not the system being described.
  - scarmig 4y ago
    Suppose you get $10kpa in SSDI, and the system described is in place. You then start working part-time and get paid $10kpa. What is your increased take home pay? $0; the effective marginal tax rate was 100% for dollars 0-10000 you earned. That means there's no incentive to take up a low paying but still useful job.
    - mlyle 4y ago
      It could be even worse; SSDI isn't taxable, but you'll be paying various payroll taxes on that $10k. So possibly over 100%.
ok_dad 4y ago
When I left the military on disability, I was also helped to sign up for SSA disability. I received both VA and SSA disability, and the SSA lady that helped me told me something about how I could work for up to 1 year and still maintain eligibility for SSA. I tried to get a job to see if I could work with my condition, but then SSA reversed course, told me what she said was wrong, and I was ejected from the disability program. I was lucky that my condition was semi-temporary, the VA still supported me, and I could find work which I could do, and thus wasn't put on the street. Now I can work mostly fine, and I don't rely on any disability payment. Other people I talked to had similar stories where they were told one thing by a VA or SSA administrator and later were punished for doing something wrong. Disabled folks and veterans are put through the ringer daily for no good reason.
- killjoywashere 4y ago
  > Disabled folks and veterans are put through the ringer daily for no good reason. And if you have the audacity to navigate the phone tree to a human and accidentally get off script (i.e. ask them a question that's literally not on their script, which you as the random disabled citizen can't possibly have visibility on), you had better check your privilege. Because they are not going to help you any more. You fell off the last leaf node in their knowledge graph and are now something foreign to them. It can get very Kafka-esque.
- Fatnino 4y ago
  *wringer
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Biggest issue with disability is you cannot start working again, even as an experiment, without losing your disability. It’s a lifetime disability. One of the worst things about the US social safety net, almost as bad as how weak it is even in total and in theory, is how piecemeal it is. Workers Compensation (and, for veterans, the VA) provide benefits that apply to partial and temporary disability, whereas Social Security provides benefits for only long-term total disability (that both prevents your past work and prevents transitioning to new work.) But evolution in jobs and working conditions, evolution in medical and assistive technology, and, frankly, refinement of knowledge about the initial injury can change what once seemed to be in one category to the other, and vice versa.
- llamataboot 4y ago
  The whole thing is one giant trap of playing the game right, or falling through the giant cracks never to be seen again. Worse than that, all the means testing and adjudications and determinations are actually /expensive/ - mountains of paperwork and appeals and this and that and the other all because the US is simple obsessed that someone, somewhere, might be getting something they don't deserve. (Without, ever, of course, facing that there are a lot of people getting what they didn't work for, they aren't generally trying to scrape by on a disability check or some unemployment though)
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    We can't have nice things because of massive fraud. There is always tension between ease of receiving services and those looking to exploit the benefit. We can and should do better, but it cannot be perfect.
    - TylerE 4y ago
      Which still happens? If people think TSA is theater…
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > We can’t have nice things because of massive fraud. Creating multiple separate bureaucracies, often with similar functions, creates more fraud vulnerabilities and more cost to preventing fraud of any given type. Our system is not designed to prevent fraud, but to enable it.
dev_throw 4y ago
Exactly. The only way to get SSDI is to quit work forever. On cancer (stage 4) treatment, but returned to work part time by stretching myself. However, it makes me ineligible for SSDI since it is above the ludicrously low earnings threshold.
tremon 4y ago
It should instead be a credit, where earning income replaces the benefit $1 for $1 This does not incentivize anybody to start working -- every dollar they make (and hence, energy they spend) adds nothing to their monthly balance. If you want to realistically get these people back into the workforce, you will have to allow them to make money on top of their benefits (e.g. up to 125%) before you start tapering off the benefits they receive.
theshrike79 4y ago
It's the same problem around the world. You're either 100% capable of work or 100% incapable. It's _really_ hard to make the bureaucracy believe you're at 50%. Or, hear me out, your ability work fluctuates daily or weekly depending on how bad your condition is!
marklyon 4y ago
Even though that's a great idea, you end up with articles about how Business X is exploiting disabled people. I recall when the PRWORA was being considered and touted as a way to provide an escape from poverty, but employers who hire workers who would be trapped in social program-driven poverty are now being maligned as somehow evil for doing so.

ranger47 4y ago

Hmm, this is not correct. I work as a employment specialist for individuals with developmental disabilities, and they rarely, if ever, lose SSI or SSDI if they start working, so long as they stay under certain thresholds (hours, wage and assets). We work closely with benefits counselors to figure out where the line is with each individual, then leverage our relationships with employers to help said individual hit that sweet spot where they are working as much as allowed while still able to collect. This always results in the individual making far more than just collecting disability alone, even if the payments are reduced. The idea of "all or nothing" is a myth that prevents a lot of folks on disability who want to work from doing so. If you happen to be such an individual, please reach out to a benefits counselor in your state and set up a meeting.

adinb 4y ago
Are you referring to Social Security benefits counselors? They are notoriously difficult to get ahold of (in NM); you have to go in person and wait in a large room for (usually) hours with several hundred people. And then what you’re told varies depending on the person.
watersb 4y ago
A close friend of ours tried to work part time, reported everything, worked with job counselor etc. but after six months was unable to continue work. It took her another six months to get it all straightened out. It's risky. The case was well documented, a lifetime of cerebral palsy and complications, seizures. And yet the disability benefits were very brittle.

soulofmischief 4y ago

The implementation might seem inefficient if you misunderstand the design; the system is working exactly as intended.

Siddarth1977 4y ago
These sorts of vague, slightly conspiratorial and cynical comments aren't helpful. "The system" isn't designed by some secret cabal of sinister tricksters who are intending it to fail specific people in specific ways. "The system" is a hodgepodge of thousands of different laws, programs, agencies and organizations under a multitude of federal, state, county and city jurisdictions and operating under rules and budgets that were approved over numerous different sets of elected and appointed individuals over decades, each of which had to strike compromises and try to work within the existing system. If you don't do enough to prevent fraud, you get a lot of fraud (see recent issues with covid payroll protection and other related measures, or homeowners insurance issues in Florida after hurricanes). If you do too much to prevent fraud, you get legitimate cases not getting the support they need. No matter what the system is, you're going to have some amount of both "false positive" and "false negative" outcomes from it.
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  To add to what you wrote: the system is also dynamic. How it works (or doesn't) today impacts how it'll look tomorrow. Interventions can be made, and they may initially improve things, and then the world at large adjusts to balance them out. It needs continuous tuning. Conversations like this are part of it too, though I admit it's frustrating to see the same problems being highlighted over and over again, for decade or more, with no improvement in sight.
- jlarocco 4y ago
  > No matter what the system is, you're going to have some amount of both "false positive" and "false negative" outcomes from it. And don't forget the feedback loop when people see the bad outcomes and demand there should be a law...
- dragonwriter 4y ago

scarmig 4y ago

> It should instead be a credit, where earning income replaces the benefit $1 for $1, but if you earn over the disability limit you don't lose your credit permanently. This creates a steep marginal tax rate (100%), which still results in a disincentive to work. It should be a more gradual phase out.

bobkazamakis 4y ago
>This creates a steep marginal tax rate (100%), which still results in a disincentive to work. ? This is not the system being described.
- scarmig 4y ago
  Suppose you get $10kpa in SSDI, and the system described is in place. You then start working part-time and get paid $10kpa. What is your increased take home pay? $0; the effective marginal tax rate was 100% for dollars 0-10000 you earned. That means there's no incentive to take up a low paying but still useful job.
  - mlyle 4y ago
    It could be even worse; SSDI isn't taxable, but you'll be paying various payroll taxes on that $10k. So possibly over 100%.

ok_dad 4y ago

When I left the military on disability, I was also helped to sign up for SSA disability. I received both VA and SSA disability, and the SSA lady that helped me told me something about how I could work for up to 1 year and still maintain eligibility for SSA. I tried to get a job to see if I could work with my condition, but then SSA reversed course, told me what she said was wrong, and I was ejected from the disability program. I was lucky that my condition was semi-temporary, the VA still supported me, and I could find work which I could do, and thus wasn't put on the street. Now I can work mostly fine, and I don't rely on any disability payment. Other people I talked to had similar stories where they were told one thing by a VA or SSA administrator and later were punished for doing something wrong. Disabled folks and veterans are put through the ringer daily for no good reason.

killjoywashere 4y ago
> Disabled folks and veterans are put through the ringer daily for no good reason. And if you have the audacity to navigate the phone tree to a human and accidentally get off script (i.e. ask them a question that's literally not on their script, which you as the random disabled citizen can't possibly have visibility on), you had better check your privilege. Because they are not going to help you any more. You fell off the last leaf node in their knowledge graph and are now something foreign to them. It can get very Kafka-esque.
Fatnino 4y ago
*wringer

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Biggest issue with disability is you cannot start working again, even as an experiment, without losing your disability. It’s a lifetime disability. One of the worst things about the US social safety net, almost as bad as how weak it is even in total and in theory, is how piecemeal it is. Workers Compensation (and, for veterans, the VA) provide benefits that apply to partial and temporary disability, whereas Social Security provides benefits for only long-term total disability (that both prevents your past work and prevents transitioning to new work.) But evolution in jobs and working conditions, evolution in medical and assistive technology, and, frankly, refinement of knowledge about the initial injury can change what once seemed to be in one category to the other, and vice versa.

llamataboot 4y ago
The whole thing is one giant trap of playing the game right, or falling through the giant cracks never to be seen again. Worse than that, all the means testing and adjudications and determinations are actually /expensive/ - mountains of paperwork and appeals and this and that and the other all because the US is simple obsessed that someone, somewhere, might be getting something they don't deserve. (Without, ever, of course, facing that there are a lot of people getting what they didn't work for, they aren't generally trying to scrape by on a disability check or some unemployment though)
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  We can't have nice things because of massive fraud. There is always tension between ease of receiving services and those looking to exploit the benefit. We can and should do better, but it cannot be perfect.
  - TylerE 4y ago
    Which still happens? If people think TSA is theater…
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > We can’t have nice things because of massive fraud. Creating multiple separate bureaucracies, often with similar functions, creates more fraud vulnerabilities and more cost to preventing fraud of any given type. Our system is not designed to prevent fraud, but to enable it.

dev_throw 4y ago

Exactly. The only way to get SSDI is to quit work forever. On cancer (stage 4) treatment, but returned to work part time by stretching myself. However, it makes me ineligible for SSDI since it is above the ludicrously low earnings threshold.

tremon 4y ago

It should instead be a credit, where earning income replaces the benefit $1 for $1 This does not incentivize anybody to start working -- every dollar they make (and hence, energy they spend) adds nothing to their monthly balance. If you want to realistically get these people back into the workforce, you will have to allow them to make money on top of their benefits (e.g. up to 125%) before you start tapering off the benefits they receive.

theshrike79 4y ago

It's the same problem around the world. You're either 100% capable of work or 100% incapable. It's _really_ hard to make the bureaucracy believe you're at 50%. Or, hear me out, your ability work fluctuates daily or weekly depending on how bad your condition is!

marklyon 4y ago

Even though that's a great idea, you end up with articles about how Business X is exploiting disabled people. I recall when the PRWORA was being considered and touted as a way to provide an escape from poverty, but employers who hire workers who would be trapped in social program-driven poverty are now being maligned as somehow evil for doing so.