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Total hit piece on the journalist. Try engaging with the story before poisoning the well. The problem with MAiD the way Canada implemented it is that there are

Total hit piece on the journalist. Try engaging with the story before poisoning the well. The problem with MAiD the way Canada implemented it is that there are incentives for the system to off you. In that scenario you mention with the doctor he didn't get paid to show you the switch, and he risks being charged if his healthy patients start dying. Now it's risk free, he could clear his schedule for the holidays and face no recriminations. > is it right for someone to have the freedom to choose the time and manner of their own death That's not the question that ended up being asked, it's can a doctor recommend that your depressed child be killed before they've put any effort into therapy. Or, can a hospital administrator reward the nurses' pod with the most patient suicides with a bonus? > is that a compassionate death should be an option [...] no reasonable prospect of turning around a terrible situation [...] no reasonable prospect of recovery Yeah, that's not how it works. They're supposed to ask that sort of stuff, and you aren't supposed to want to die for lack of some food, but in fact it's not helping the people you think and not saving those you'd wish.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago
> Now it's risk free, he could clear his schedule for the holidays and face no recriminations. Can you cite this happening? > Or, can a hospital administrator reward the nurses' pod with the most patient suicides with a bonus? Can you cite this happening? > Yeah, that's not how it works. They're supposed to ask that sort of stuff, and you aren't supposed to want to die for lack of some food, but in fact it's not helping the people you think and not saving those you'd wish. Can you cite statistics on a population? There are multiple MAiD online communities. Surely someone has surveyed them?
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  > Can you cite this happening? Can you cite a rule preventing this? We'd like to keep it from happening. > There are multiple MAiD online communities. The Veterans community is pretty pissed off about that Paralympian athlete who was offered suicide instead of a wheelchair ramp. They don't feel this is working correctly.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    > Can you cite a rule preventing this? We'd like to keep it from happening. You made the claim that it's happening, not that we need a rule to prevent a hypothetical. This is a goalpost-moving behavior. > The Veterans community is pretty pissed off about that Paralympian athlete who was offered suicide instead of a wheelchair ramp. They don't feel this is working correctly. This isn't the same as a population-based study to prove that these are not edge case exceptions that receive appropriate outcry and thereby support. I'm more interested in whether or not this is happening broadly. I want to know if this is happening to people who wouldn't get broad support, like homeless felons, on a population-wide level.
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      > You made the claim that it's happening No, I said 'could'. There's apparently no useful rule preventing it. > This isn't the same as a population-based study to prove that these are not edge case exceptions that receive appropriate outcry and thereby support. It doesn't need to be, it's an existence proof of bad policy. Even one case like this is too much.
      - ttul 4y ago
        You could make criticisms of nearly any law if the bar for criticism is just that it's possible to push edge case X or Y. I think it's far more important and relevant to establish whether edge case X or Y is occurring with regularity. There are abuses of every law from time to time - and sometimes with concerning regularity. I don't see any evidence being put forward in the present article that the alleged potential abuses of the MAiD legislation are widespread.
        LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        > I don't see any evidence [...] I think that's the wrong standard for this - "visible evidence of failure", or "fully convincing rational". The burden of proof should be that we stop it unless we can show continual strong evidence of proportionality. The point isn't that this is horrible now, it's that it doesn't seem to have the type of guidelines we'd posited that would keep it from getting horrible. > it's far more important and relevant to establish [...] occurring with regularity I don't know how many disabled veterans they've offed, but even offering it to the one shows a stunning lack of ability to judge need and a heinous disregard for that person's life. Having a doctor recommend you kill yourself is likely to be somewhat devastating and have its own consequences even if you don't follow through. > You could make criticisms of nearly any law if the bar for criticism is just that it's possible to push edge case X or Y. It's not just possible, it's economically incentivized. Both at the individual and systemic level.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Why can't we preemptively defend against foreseeable bad things happening? Why do we have to wait until we see them happen and only then react to them?
  - ttul 4y ago
    If government had the burden of legislating everything to perfection on the first pass, it would never make any forward progress. Therefore, there is no such burden. In a free and democratic country like Canada, the political process corrects for policy making that is against the interests of most people. Canada is somewhat unique in that its modern constitution provides strong protections for minorities through section 7's right to life, liberty and security of the person. Perhaps in other countries where citizens view government with a level of justifiable suspicion, assisted death is not something that can be on the table yet. But in Canada, citizens trust that while not all policies are perfect, nor their implementation, there is a strong desire to get things right over time.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago

> Now it's risk free, he could clear his schedule for the holidays and face no recriminations. Can you cite this happening? > Or, can a hospital administrator reward the nurses' pod with the most patient suicides with a bonus? Can you cite this happening? > Yeah, that's not how it works. They're supposed to ask that sort of stuff, and you aren't supposed to want to die for lack of some food, but in fact it's not helping the people you think and not saving those you'd wish. Can you cite statistics on a population? There are multiple MAiD online communities. Surely someone has surveyed them?

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
> Can you cite this happening? Can you cite a rule preventing this? We'd like to keep it from happening. > There are multiple MAiD online communities. The Veterans community is pretty pissed off about that Paralympian athlete who was offered suicide instead of a wheelchair ramp. They don't feel this is working correctly.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  > Can you cite a rule preventing this? We'd like to keep it from happening. You made the claim that it's happening, not that we need a rule to prevent a hypothetical. This is a goalpost-moving behavior. > The Veterans community is pretty pissed off about that Paralympian athlete who was offered suicide instead of a wheelchair ramp. They don't feel this is working correctly. This isn't the same as a population-based study to prove that these are not edge case exceptions that receive appropriate outcry and thereby support. I'm more interested in whether or not this is happening broadly. I want to know if this is happening to people who wouldn't get broad support, like homeless felons, on a population-wide level.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    > You made the claim that it's happening No, I said 'could'. There's apparently no useful rule preventing it. > This isn't the same as a population-based study to prove that these are not edge case exceptions that receive appropriate outcry and thereby support. It doesn't need to be, it's an existence proof of bad policy. Even one case like this is too much.
    - ttul 4y ago
      You could make criticisms of nearly any law if the bar for criticism is just that it's possible to push edge case X or Y. I think it's far more important and relevant to establish whether edge case X or Y is occurring with regularity. There are abuses of every law from time to time - and sometimes with concerning regularity. I don't see any evidence being put forward in the present article that the alleged potential abuses of the MAiD legislation are widespread.
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        > I don't see any evidence [...] I think that's the wrong standard for this - "visible evidence of failure", or "fully convincing rational". The burden of proof should be that we stop it unless we can show continual strong evidence of proportionality. The point isn't that this is horrible now, it's that it doesn't seem to have the type of guidelines we'd posited that would keep it from getting horrible. > it's far more important and relevant to establish [...] occurring with regularity I don't know how many disabled veterans they've offed, but even offering it to the one shows a stunning lack of ability to judge need and a heinous disregard for that person's life. Having a doctor recommend you kill yourself is likely to be somewhat devastating and have its own consequences even if you don't follow through. > You could make criticisms of nearly any law if the bar for criticism is just that it's possible to push edge case X or Y. It's not just possible, it's economically incentivized. Both at the individual and systemic level.
josephcsible 4y ago
Why can't we preemptively defend against foreseeable bad things happening? Why do we have to wait until we see them happen and only then react to them?
- ttul 4y ago
  If government had the burden of legislating everything to perfection on the first pass, it would never make any forward progress. Therefore, there is no such burden. In a free and democratic country like Canada, the political process corrects for policy making that is against the interests of most people. Canada is somewhat unique in that its modern constitution provides strong protections for minorities through section 7's right to life, liberty and security of the person. Perhaps in other countries where citizens view government with a level of justifiable suspicion, assisted death is not something that can be on the table yet. But in Canada, citizens trust that while not all policies are perfect, nor their implementation, there is a strong desire to get things right over time.