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There's no reason consumer SIMs should be able to call more than N distinct numbers in any 24h period. You can implement reasonable rate limits to prevent abuse

There's no reason consumer SIMs should be able to call more than N distinct numbers in any 24h period. You can implement reasonable rate limits to prevent abuse. However, even if we assume that SIM boxes are a magic solution to carrier interventions, that still raises the cost from the current status-quo. Implement enough of these barriers and the entire scam operation becomes unprofitable and no longer worthwhile.

bbbbb5 4y ago
And what do you propose would be such a reasonable rate limit? >However, even if we assume that SIM boxes are a magic solution to carrier interventions, that still raises the cost from the current status-quo. Implement enough of these barriers and the entire scam operation becomes unprofitable and no longer worthwhile. Why do you assume that the call routing is a meaningful cost to these operations? For all we know they spend less than 0.01% of their revenue on call routing.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> There's no reason consumer SIMs should be able to call more than N distinct numbers in any 24h period. Oh jesus please no, whats next? Ther is no reason a consumer oven should cook more than 5 meals a day. There is no reason a consumer toasteer should toast mpre than 10 times a day. The bread you make tourself is unauthorised in a toaster
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  The difference between this and cooking/toasting bread is that your bread-making activities have no way to negatively affect someone else - we don't have an epidemic of spammers paying people to bake "underground bread" in their homes. Of course, an override should be provided - the restriction should be relaxed over time once the account is established for a long time without any complaints.
  - from 4y ago
    What you are describing is already done by carriers in countries with high sim box usage. (Basically, it costs ~$0.01/min to make a local call in Nigeria but $0.25/min to make an international call to Nigeria so people there set up SIM boxes and Asterisk to terminate calls locally and profit the difference between these rates. The reason it costs $0.25/min to call the official way is due to many governments taxing incoming international calls because they see it as an easy way to raise revenue at other people's expense). But anyways, because governments don't like this kind of arbitrage, they force carriers to add detection mechanisms. So they check for high ratio of outbound to incoming calls, high amount of distinct phone numbers called, 24/7 usage patterns, etc. Except Africa is still losing a few billion dollars a year to this kind of toll bypass because it is still massively profitable (see https://en.antrax.mobi/request-pricing/ https://en.antrax.mobi/request-pricing/ for example) and these changes just require them to rotate sim cards slightly more often. Essentially what I am saying is that unless you can reduce the fraudsters' margin by a substantial amount you are wasting your time.
- vctrnk 4y ago
  > Ther is no reason a consumer oven should cook more than 5 meals a day. There is no reason a consumer toasteer should toast mpre than 10 times a day. Consumer ≠ business/commercial. A home oven (or toaster, fryer etc) isn't made for such use, a commercial one is. You should really spend the monies in commercial gear if you're gonna feed such hordes of people. Similar thing with SIM cards. Why would a normal person be making 100+ calls a day on a simple, personal line? That's clearly commercial use and as such, it oughta be regulated somehow.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

bbbbb5 4y ago

And what do you propose would be such a reasonable rate limit? >However, even if we assume that SIM boxes are a magic solution to carrier interventions, that still raises the cost from the current status-quo. Implement enough of these barriers and the entire scam operation becomes unprofitable and no longer worthwhile. Why do you assume that the call routing is a meaningful cost to these operations? For all we know they spend less than 0.01% of their revenue on call routing.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

> There's no reason consumer SIMs should be able to call more than N distinct numbers in any 24h period. Oh jesus please no, whats next? Ther is no reason a consumer oven should cook more than 5 meals a day. There is no reason a consumer toasteer should toast mpre than 10 times a day. The bread you make tourself is unauthorised in a toaster

Nextgrid 4y ago
The difference between this and cooking/toasting bread is that your bread-making activities have no way to negatively affect someone else - we don't have an epidemic of spammers paying people to bake "underground bread" in their homes. Of course, an override should be provided - the restriction should be relaxed over time once the account is established for a long time without any complaints.
- from 4y ago
  What you are describing is already done by carriers in countries with high sim box usage. (Basically, it costs ~$0.01/min to make a local call in Nigeria but $0.25/min to make an international call to Nigeria so people there set up SIM boxes and Asterisk to terminate calls locally and profit the difference between these rates. The reason it costs $0.25/min to call the official way is due to many governments taxing incoming international calls because they see it as an easy way to raise revenue at other people's expense). But anyways, because governments don't like this kind of arbitrage, they force carriers to add detection mechanisms. So they check for high ratio of outbound to incoming calls, high amount of distinct phone numbers called, 24/7 usage patterns, etc. Except Africa is still losing a few billion dollars a year to this kind of toll bypass because it is still massively profitable (see https://en.antrax.mobi/request-pricing/ https://en.antrax.mobi/request-pricing/ for example) and these changes just require them to rotate sim cards slightly more often. Essentially what I am saying is that unless you can reduce the fraudsters' margin by a substantial amount you are wasting your time.
vctrnk 4y ago
> Ther is no reason a consumer oven should cook more than 5 meals a day. There is no reason a consumer toasteer should toast mpre than 10 times a day. Consumer ≠ business/commercial. A home oven (or toaster, fryer etc) isn't made for such use, a commercial one is. You should really spend the monies in commercial gear if you're gonna feed such hordes of people. Similar thing with SIM cards. Why would a normal person be making 100+ calls a day on a simple, personal line? That's clearly commercial use and as such, it oughta be regulated somehow.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]