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I've seen a lot of consternation online regarding this program, with most of it simply presenting the idea of assisted suicide as self-evidently unconscionable.

I've seen a lot of consternation online regarding this program, with most of it simply presenting the idea of assisted suicide as self-evidently unconscionable. But why think so? Why should someone be forced to continue to live a life they have no interest in, regardless of the reason? This idea that the highest virtue is to continue breathing for as long as possible is probably an ideological holdout from our Christian past, where suffering was virtuous and our fates were in God's hands, not our own. The West has become largely secular, but our Christian forebearers still have immense influence.

tsimionescu 4y ago
The problem is that killing those whose lives are currently bad is much simpler than helping them fix their lives. That is the undesirable outcome - that those who aren't lucky just die, instead of making a system where everyone is well off enough that they don't feel death is better than going on living (except a very small handful of people with incurable painful or otherwise debilitating conditions, of course).
- hackinthebochs 4y ago
  But that's not an argument against assisted suicide. If you don't like the choices people are making, absolutely offer them more options so they can choose otherwise. But if there is no willingness to fund these alternatives, forcing people to continue to suffer so that your aesthetic sense isn't offended isn't justifiable.
  - kneebonian 4y ago
    There is a difference between the argument against assisted suicide and an argument against the way Canada is doing assisted suicide. This article is about the latter not the former.
    - hackinthebochs 4y ago
      The article isn't really an argument against it either. It's simply presenting events with the understanding that people will see it as self-evidently unconscionable. I'm interested in arguments for this underlying assumption.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    My fear is governments instituting such programs instead of offering more choices, and perhaps even then looking at statistics skewed by assisted suicide to argue against instituting other programs. Personally, I think that in any wealthy country, even one person feeling that their life isn't worth continuing for purely economic reasons should be considered a failure of the entire government. I of course know we are nowhere near such an attitude being mainstream, but that is where my point is coming from. I am very much afraid of right-wing governments feeling more and more empowered to say "if they don't like their living conditions, they can just ask for assisted suicide" as the ultimate alternbcative to any social investment.
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      > right-wing governments feeling more and more empowered to say "if they don't like their living conditions, they can just ask for assisted suicide" Wait, isn't the right wing very much against assisted suicide in all forms?
      - tsimionescu 4y ago
        There are many aspects of right-wing thinking (just as left-wing) and the more capitalist-libertarian or anarcho-capitalist ones (that are some of the most popular) are much less bothered by assisted suicide than by social spending.
giraffe_lady 4y ago
> forced to continue to live a life they have no interest in Who said they have no interest in life? There are already clear examples of people choosing this who do want to continue living, but don't see a way to meet their own needs with the resources given to them. Later down thread you switch to a "there is no interest in funding them" argument. Which is straight up wicked sorry. That's just saying regardless of whether you find life living, we don't find your life worth living, so expect you to end it. I don't have any particular generalized moral objection to suicide per se. I believe people should be able to meet the end of their life on their own terms with dignity and agency. But I also know that we live in an unequal world, and that people will be, are now presented with this option when they would not otherwise choose it, when we don't find their lives worth living.
- hackinthebochs 4y ago
  >Who said they have no interest in life? This is different than "forced to continue to live a life they have no interest in". >Later down thread you switch to a "there is no interest in funding them" argument. I didn't switch to anything. It was a premise of a specific argument in response to a specific claim. >That's just saying regardless of whether you find life living, we don't find your life worth living, so expect you to end it. This just has no relation whatsoever to anything I said. >I don't have any particular generalized moral objection to suicide per se. I believe people should be able to meet the end of their life on their own terms with dignity and agency. Great, we agree on that point. My further point is that those currently suffering should not bear the burden of our inability to collectively decide to fund further improvements to their quality of life.
hackeraccount 4y ago
The suicide part of assisted suicide is like watching a man on fire jump out of a burning building. Sin? Mistake? Wrong? I don't know, I might think so but I'm not the man on fire and I don't want to pretend like I am. The assisted part is someone pushing a man on fire off of a building. It might seem odd looked at rationally (What the heck, the man might have jumped on his own.) but I still feel comfortable saying there's something wrong here. I can't believe the only or best response is to shove him off. If by some horrible confluence of events then I would be putting all future efforts towards figuring out a better way to deal humanely with the same situation in the future not putting a set of long sticks on the rooftop so that future pushers would have a smaller chance of getting burned.
- hackinthebochs 4y ago
  Don't know why you got downvoted but I appreciated your comment for what that's worth. Shows a good deal of epistemic humility and self-awareness. Something severely lacking in these kinds of discussions.

tsimionescu 4y ago

The problem is that killing those whose lives are currently bad is much simpler than helping them fix their lives. That is the undesirable outcome - that those who aren't lucky just die, instead of making a system where everyone is well off enough that they don't feel death is better than going on living (except a very small handful of people with incurable painful or otherwise debilitating conditions, of course).

hackinthebochs 4y ago
But that's not an argument against assisted suicide. If you don't like the choices people are making, absolutely offer them more options so they can choose otherwise. But if there is no willingness to fund these alternatives, forcing people to continue to suffer so that your aesthetic sense isn't offended isn't justifiable.
- kneebonian 4y ago
  There is a difference between the argument against assisted suicide and an argument against the way Canada is doing assisted suicide. This article is about the latter not the former.
  - hackinthebochs 4y ago
    The article isn't really an argument against it either. It's simply presenting events with the understanding that people will see it as self-evidently unconscionable. I'm interested in arguments for this underlying assumption.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  My fear is governments instituting such programs instead of offering more choices, and perhaps even then looking at statistics skewed by assisted suicide to argue against instituting other programs. Personally, I think that in any wealthy country, even one person feeling that their life isn't worth continuing for purely economic reasons should be considered a failure of the entire government. I of course know we are nowhere near such an attitude being mainstream, but that is where my point is coming from. I am very much afraid of right-wing governments feeling more and more empowered to say "if they don't like their living conditions, they can just ask for assisted suicide" as the ultimate alternbcative to any social investment.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > right-wing governments feeling more and more empowered to say "if they don't like their living conditions, they can just ask for assisted suicide" Wait, isn't the right wing very much against assisted suicide in all forms?
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      There are many aspects of right-wing thinking (just as left-wing) and the more capitalist-libertarian or anarcho-capitalist ones (that are some of the most popular) are much less bothered by assisted suicide than by social spending.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

> forced to continue to live a life they have no interest in Who said they have no interest in life? There are already clear examples of people choosing this who do want to continue living, but don't see a way to meet their own needs with the resources given to them. Later down thread you switch to a "there is no interest in funding them" argument. Which is straight up wicked sorry. That's just saying regardless of whether you find life living, we don't find your life worth living, so expect you to end it. I don't have any particular generalized moral objection to suicide per se. I believe people should be able to meet the end of their life on their own terms with dignity and agency. But I also know that we live in an unequal world, and that people will be, are now presented with this option when they would not otherwise choose it, when we don't find their lives worth living.

hackinthebochs 4y ago
>Who said they have no interest in life? This is different than "forced to continue to live a life they have no interest in". >Later down thread you switch to a "there is no interest in funding them" argument. I didn't switch to anything. It was a premise of a specific argument in response to a specific claim. >That's just saying regardless of whether you find life living, we don't find your life worth living, so expect you to end it. This just has no relation whatsoever to anything I said. >I don't have any particular generalized moral objection to suicide per se. I believe people should be able to meet the end of their life on their own terms with dignity and agency. Great, we agree on that point. My further point is that those currently suffering should not bear the burden of our inability to collectively decide to fund further improvements to their quality of life.

hackeraccount 4y ago

The suicide part of assisted suicide is like watching a man on fire jump out of a burning building. Sin? Mistake? Wrong? I don't know, I might think so but I'm not the man on fire and I don't want to pretend like I am. The assisted part is someone pushing a man on fire off of a building. It might seem odd looked at rationally (What the heck, the man might have jumped on his own.) but I still feel comfortable saying there's something wrong here. I can't believe the only or best response is to shove him off. If by some horrible confluence of events then I would be putting all future efforts towards figuring out a better way to deal humanely with the same situation in the future not putting a set of long sticks on the rooftop so that future pushers would have a smaller chance of getting burned.

hackinthebochs 4y ago
Don't know why you got downvoted but I appreciated your comment for what that's worth. Shows a good deal of epistemic humility and self-awareness. Something severely lacking in these kinds of discussions.