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I have good news for you :) > I don't think I'll ever describe myself reaching <X> nibbana, because, well, a hammer is a hammer, an IDE is an IDE, a tool is si

I have good news for you :) > I don't think I'll ever describe myself reaching <X> nibbana, because, well, a hammer is a hammer, an IDE is an IDE, a tool is simply a tool, a means to an end. According to the Zen master Dogen: “Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.”

EdwardDiego 4y ago
Maybe contrast that to Chuang Tzu's Dexterous Butcher... "When I first began To cut up an oxen I would see before me The whole ox All in one mass. After three years I no longer saw this mass. I saw the distinctions. “But now, I see nothing With the eye. My whole being Apprehends. My senses are idle. The spirit Free to work without plan Follows its own instinct Guided by natural line, By the secret opening, the hidden space, My cleaver finds its own way. I cut through no joint, chop no bone." It's not the tool, but the wielder.
- MonkeyClub 4y ago
  > It's not the tool, but the wielder. It’s following the tao of the ox. That’s why he didn’t need to sharpen his cleaver for a decade or something, it just “naturally” went into the empty spaces, rather than stumble against bones and sinews. (If I remember correctly; my old Burton Watson copy is now sadly long lost.)
lukas099 4y ago
Like a lot of Zen things, this sounds like someone 'trying to sound deep'. But I'll try my best to interpret it charitably and maybe others can chime in with their interpretations. It's safe to say most people see mountains as mountains etc. When you start practicing Zen, you glimpse into the inseparability of things: there is really no defined boundary between the 'atoms of the mountain' and the 'atoms of the water'. (Also the atoms themselves are mostly empty space with a probability distribution of where the 'stuff' 'is'). Things like 'mountains' are really illusory abstractions that humans build on top of the underlying reality of the swirling wave patterns of the universe. 'Existence precedes essence', as the existentialists say. Still in this second phase, you notice things like when you have a conversation with another, the conversation is not really being generated by either brain, it is being generated by the system that includes both brains (and nerves, muscles, vocal cords, the air between them, eardrums, etc.) However, after enlightenment, you realize that the underlying physics is no more 'real' than the abstractions, as the abstractions are what really has an effect on the universe. As Zizek might say, the distortion itself is the real. When I see a mountain, the way that my brain interprets it as a mountain, in effect makes it a mountain, because the symbol itself manifests itself in my thoughts and actions.
- lukas099 4y ago
  Note that if you are reading this, you probably shouldn't listen to my interpretations of what Dogen, Sartre, or Zizek are trying to say. These are my own, very flawed interpretations of their words.
  - MonkeyClub 4y ago
    Lol obviously a good meta point. I’d also note that Dogen wasn’t trying to sound deep - perhaps unlike Sartre and Zizek.
diffxx 4y ago
Also relevant, Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water.

EdwardDiego 4y ago

Maybe contrast that to Chuang Tzu's Dexterous Butcher... "When I first began To cut up an oxen I would see before me The whole ox All in one mass. After three years I no longer saw this mass. I saw the distinctions. “But now, I see nothing With the eye. My whole being Apprehends. My senses are idle. The spirit Free to work without plan Follows its own instinct Guided by natural line, By the secret opening, the hidden space, My cleaver finds its own way. I cut through no joint, chop no bone." It's not the tool, but the wielder.

MonkeyClub 4y ago
> It's not the tool, but the wielder. It’s following the tao of the ox. That’s why he didn’t need to sharpen his cleaver for a decade or something, it just “naturally” went into the empty spaces, rather than stumble against bones and sinews. (If I remember correctly; my old Burton Watson copy is now sadly long lost.)

lukas099 4y ago

Like a lot of Zen things, this sounds like someone 'trying to sound deep'. But I'll try my best to interpret it charitably and maybe others can chime in with their interpretations. It's safe to say most people see mountains as mountains etc. When you start practicing Zen, you glimpse into the inseparability of things: there is really no defined boundary between the 'atoms of the mountain' and the 'atoms of the water'. (Also the atoms themselves are mostly empty space with a probability distribution of where the 'stuff' 'is'). Things like 'mountains' are really illusory abstractions that humans build on top of the underlying reality of the swirling wave patterns of the universe. 'Existence precedes essence', as the existentialists say. Still in this second phase, you notice things like when you have a conversation with another, the conversation is not really being generated by either brain, it is being generated by the system that includes both brains (and nerves, muscles, vocal cords, the air between them, eardrums, etc.) However, after enlightenment, you realize that the underlying physics is no more 'real' than the abstractions, as the abstractions are what really has an effect on the universe. As Zizek might say, the distortion itself is the real. When I see a mountain, the way that my brain interprets it as a mountain, in effect makes it a mountain, because the symbol itself manifests itself in my thoughts and actions.

lukas099 4y ago
Note that if you are reading this, you probably shouldn't listen to my interpretations of what Dogen, Sartre, or Zizek are trying to say. These are my own, very flawed interpretations of their words.
- MonkeyClub 4y ago
  Lol obviously a good meta point. I’d also note that Dogen wasn’t trying to sound deep - perhaps unlike Sartre and Zizek.

diffxx 4y ago

Also relevant, Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water.