3 ms·

Perhaps I'm assuming, but it seems you don't know much about the life of the poor. If they could afford to move from the projects where these gangs operate, do

by oz 15y ago

Perhaps I'm assuming, but it seems you don't know much about the life of the poor. If they could afford to move from the projects where these gangs operate, don't you think they would in a heartbeat? The foot soldier in a gang is not making a lot of money - far from it. But your mom just got laid off, rent needs to be paid and your baby sister needs to be fed. So you do what you have to do. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility, and was as big a supporter of Randian thought as one could be without ever reading any of her book. But as I grew up and got exposed to The Real World, I realized that many times we are the victims of circumstances which seem to conspire against us. So it's not always easy to just up and move to another side of the country.

dennisgorelik 15y ago
I know from my own experience about being poor. How about family of 4 living on less than $100/month income? That's me as a teenager 20 years ago as a member of said family. I never implied that quitting criminal gang is easy. The hardest part though is to overcome greed and change mentality. Unemployed mom and baby sister would likely to be better off without criminal gang member in the family.
- shadowfiend 15y ago
  Would they? Recall that gangs are partially a matter of self-defense. You join a gang because otherwise rival gangs try to hurt or kill you. You join to defend your family. At least that's the story they spin. Once you buy into the story, it becomes even harder to convince yourself that it's a good idea to leave. I do not claim to know your past. But I know my parents were also poor, and the difference between them and the other kids who were poor around them who never moved up was in their parenting and their education. They ended up in a situation where they could pull out because of that education, and they ended up with certain mindsets that stemmed from the parenting they received. If you don't have one or, often, both of those, you're basically hosed. Not completely, mind you, but the jump needed to pull yourself out of poverty becomes massively bigger. And if you're immersed in a culture where violence is the norm and gangs are the only way to gain serious social acceptance at a young age, you've got even more working against you. I'm really not sure why you're bringing greed into this. Most of the members in gangs are in no way rich. The leaders might be (and even that is not necessarily the case), but the members are not.
  - dennisgorelik 15y ago
    1) It's more likely to get killed if you have criminal gang member in your family. So yes, mom and baby sister are better off without such "help". 2) Why do you equate greed with being rich? These are orthogonal concepts. 3) Yes, it's hard to make right decision when you grew up submerged into bad culture. Fortunately good culture is available too. Even more - bad culture is at disadvantage due to schools, popular mass culture, law enforcement and mutual gang killings. So in the end the decision of quitting the gang is a matter of personal choice.
  - justincormack 15y ago
    "In search of respect" by Philip Bourgois is an interesting book, particularly on the reality of how much money there is in the drug trade, and about gang life.

by oz 15y ago

dennisgorelik 15y ago

I know from my own experience about being poor. How about family of 4 living on less than $100/month income? That's me as a teenager 20 years ago as a member of said family. I never implied that quitting criminal gang is easy. The hardest part though is to overcome greed and change mentality. Unemployed mom and baby sister would likely to be better off without criminal gang member in the family.

shadowfiend 15y ago
Would they? Recall that gangs are partially a matter of self-defense. You join a gang because otherwise rival gangs try to hurt or kill you. You join to defend your family. At least that's the story they spin. Once you buy into the story, it becomes even harder to convince yourself that it's a good idea to leave. I do not claim to know your past. But I know my parents were also poor, and the difference between them and the other kids who were poor around them who never moved up was in their parenting and their education. They ended up in a situation where they could pull out because of that education, and they ended up with certain mindsets that stemmed from the parenting they received. If you don't have one or, often, both of those, you're basically hosed. Not completely, mind you, but the jump needed to pull yourself out of poverty becomes massively bigger. And if you're immersed in a culture where violence is the norm and gangs are the only way to gain serious social acceptance at a young age, you've got even more working against you. I'm really not sure why you're bringing greed into this. Most of the members in gangs are in no way rich. The leaders might be (and even that is not necessarily the case), but the members are not.
- dennisgorelik 15y ago
  1) It's more likely to get killed if you have criminal gang member in your family. So yes, mom and baby sister are better off without such "help". 2) Why do you equate greed with being rich? These are orthogonal concepts. 3) Yes, it's hard to make right decision when you grew up submerged into bad culture. Fortunately good culture is available too. Even more - bad culture is at disadvantage due to schools, popular mass culture, law enforcement and mutual gang killings. So in the end the decision of quitting the gang is a matter of personal choice.
- justincormack 15y ago
  "In search of respect" by Philip Bourgois is an interesting book, particularly on the reality of how much money there is in the drug trade, and about gang life.