5 ms·

So, where I grew up, everybody was a criminal. I don't mean that hyperbolically either. Everyone in my family (mostly bottom-of-the-barrel criminals, but a few

So, where I grew up, everybody was a criminal. I don't mean that hyperbolically either. Everyone in my family (mostly bottom-of-the-barrel criminals, but a few actual bad-ass criminals), every other kid who lived in my neighborhood. All criminals. My older brother ran away from home when he was 15, partially to get away from all of that. I stayed until I was 17, but left for much the same reason. If I felt obliged to report everyone in my history who has broken the law (or made it a habit of breaking the law), I would have quite possibly spent thousands of dollars on phone calls to the police. I removed myself from the moral dilemma by going far away from all of that and not going back. I've been a boring nerd for the past twelve years.

sounds 15y ago
Sadly, such a situation is not unique. Kudos for being open about it. Kudos as well for being able, and having the balls to make the exit. I'm speaking from a background of gangs, where there is no exit. Except a coffin.
- dennisgorelik 15y ago
  What could possibly keep gang member in the gang aside of greed? Why not just move to another side of the country and start a new life?
  - shadowfiend 15y ago
    Safety, for one. As for moving, family and lack of a link to anywhere else. Starting a new life isn't as easy as you seem to think it is. Nor, for that matter, is moving. Particularly if you don't necessarily have any good marketable skills.
    - dennisgorelik 15y ago
      I would guess that former gang member should be able to flip burgers, mop the floor and collect trash from the streets. That's a good start. Yes, that might not pay as much as criminal activity, but that's definitely enough to survive. As for safety - why is it not safe to quit a gang? Why would remaining gang members care about former gang member who disappeared in unknown direction and does not cause any trouble?
      - asdkl234890 15y ago
        I would guess that former gang member should be able to flip burgers, mop the floor and collect trash from the streets. And with the pay from that he could afford to live where? No place better than where he came from!
        dennisgorelik 15y ago
        New place does not have to be better. It could be even worse. That could be part of the price of quitting criminal activity. The point of moving to new place is to eliminate all the ties with old life and gang members. But I guess even that is not necessary. I'm not expert on quitting gangs, but would assume that most gangs would not really force gang member on staying in the gang against the will of quitting gang member. If gang member is lacking determination - he might be useless of even dangerous as an active member of the gang. So the most practical approach should be mutual thinking: "good riddance".
        sopooneo 15y ago
        You are utterly and absolutely incorrect.
        oz 15y ago
        "New place does not have to be better. It could be even worse. That could be part of the price of quitting criminal activity." Great. So you move to some other depressed community, which will have all of what you were trying to escape. Only now you have no support network, nobody who's got your back. Guess what that's a recipe for? It's not as easy as you make it sound.
        dennisgorelik 15y ago
        "Easy"? Who promised you that improving life would be easy?
      - shadowfiend 15y ago
        Well, for one thing, because they can tattle. For another, because they are crazy. Last but not least, when you've been in a gang since you were 10 or 12 or 14, psychologically speaking, you can't just go “a'ight, I'm out. Peace!” and untie yourself emotionally from the mentality of always having the backs of your fellow gang members. I ask honestly, but do you have any idea what you're talking about here? Here are two reference articles, one on empathizing with people in situations that are completely outside of your realm of experience: “A Muscular Empathy”: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/a-muscular-empathy/249984/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/a-muscul... ’If you really want to understand slaves, slave masters, poor black kids, poor white kids, rich people of colors, whoever, it is essential that you first come to grips with the disturbing facts of your own mediocrity. The first rule is this--You are not extraordinary. It's all fine and good to declare that you would have freed your slaves. But it's much more interesting to assume that you wouldn't and then ask "Why?"‘ And one on getting out of gangs and the psychological pull they still have even after you've decided to get gone: http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/02/06/the-draw-of-dead-town.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/02/06/the-draw-of... ‘"They'll say, 'What's wrong with you, sissy? What's wrong with you, faggot?' Misery loves company. They don't want to see you succeed because they're still in misery. 'He's doing good? F––– that fool.' A lot of kids fall away. They sabotage their success."’
  - oz 15y ago
    Perhaps I'm assuming, but it seems you don't know much about the life of the poor. If they could afford to move from the projects where these gangs operate, don't you think they would in a heartbeat? The foot soldier in a gang is not making a lot of money - far from it. But your mom just got laid off, rent needs to be paid and your baby sister needs to be fed. So you do what you have to do. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility, and was as big a supporter of Randian thought as one could be without ever reading any of her book. But as I grew up and got exposed to The Real World, I realized that many times we are the victims of circumstances which seem to conspire against us. So it's not always easy to just up and move to another side of the country.
    - dennisgorelik 15y ago
      I know from my own experience about being poor. How about family of 4 living on less than $100/month income? That's me as a teenager 20 years ago as a member of said family. I never implied that quitting criminal gang is easy. The hardest part though is to overcome greed and change mentality. Unemployed mom and baby sister would likely to be better off without criminal gang member in the family.
      - shadowfiend 15y ago
        Would they? Recall that gangs are partially a matter of self-defense. You join a gang because otherwise rival gangs try to hurt or kill you. You join to defend your family. At least that's the story they spin. Once you buy into the story, it becomes even harder to convince yourself that it's a good idea to leave. I do not claim to know your past. But I know my parents were also poor, and the difference between them and the other kids who were poor around them who never moved up was in their parenting and their education. They ended up in a situation where they could pull out because of that education, and they ended up with certain mindsets that stemmed from the parenting they received. If you don't have one or, often, both of those, you're basically hosed. Not completely, mind you, but the jump needed to pull yourself out of poverty becomes massively bigger. And if you're immersed in a culture where violence is the norm and gangs are the only way to gain serious social acceptance at a young age, you've got even more working against you. I'm really not sure why you're bringing greed into this. Most of the members in gangs are in no way rich. The leaders might be (and even that is not necessarily the case), but the members are not.
jmilloy 15y ago
If you have kept up with this particular friend so that you know his current situation, then you have not removed yourself from the moral dilemma. Glad you got out, and there may be other reasons not to turn someone in, but this is a bad excuse.
- m0nastic 15y ago
  I should be clear, I haven't seen any of these people in many many years. The situation I've explained was how things were set up when I last had any contact with Colin. I haven't heard anything since, so I assume things are progressing more or less the same.
  - dennisgorelik 15y ago
    May be not exactly the same. Colin might be in jail by now. Or quit his criminal business. Or "pivoted" it to legitimate car repair business. GPS tracking devices are much cheaper. There are much more surveillance cameras than 10 years ago. That could significantly reduce car hijacking business.
kinkora 15y ago
Good to know you got yourself out of the situation. Funnily enough, I did exactly that too; I left it as it is and eventually moved on from where I grew up and lost contact with my friend. Still, I've always felt a tingle of guilt every time someone looses something valuable at the cinema. It always reminded me that if everyone runs away from a problem, nobody will solve the issue. Being slightly older (and maybe wiser) now, what I should have done is try to find a way to convince her to stop stealing. Anyway, thanks for your reply!

sounds 15y ago

Sadly, such a situation is not unique. Kudos for being open about it. Kudos as well for being able, and having the balls to make the exit. I'm speaking from a background of gangs, where there is no exit. Except a coffin.

dennisgorelik 15y ago
What could possibly keep gang member in the gang aside of greed? Why not just move to another side of the country and start a new life?
- shadowfiend 15y ago
  Safety, for one. As for moving, family and lack of a link to anywhere else. Starting a new life isn't as easy as you seem to think it is. Nor, for that matter, is moving. Particularly if you don't necessarily have any good marketable skills.
  - dennisgorelik 15y ago
    I would guess that former gang member should be able to flip burgers, mop the floor and collect trash from the streets. That's a good start. Yes, that might not pay as much as criminal activity, but that's definitely enough to survive. As for safety - why is it not safe to quit a gang? Why would remaining gang members care about former gang member who disappeared in unknown direction and does not cause any trouble?
    - asdkl234890 15y ago
      I would guess that former gang member should be able to flip burgers, mop the floor and collect trash from the streets. And with the pay from that he could afford to live where? No place better than where he came from!
      - dennisgorelik 15y ago
        New place does not have to be better. It could be even worse. That could be part of the price of quitting criminal activity. The point of moving to new place is to eliminate all the ties with old life and gang members. But I guess even that is not necessary. I'm not expert on quitting gangs, but would assume that most gangs would not really force gang member on staying in the gang against the will of quitting gang member. If gang member is lacking determination - he might be useless of even dangerous as an active member of the gang. So the most practical approach should be mutual thinking: "good riddance".
        sopooneo 15y ago
        You are utterly and absolutely incorrect.
        oz 15y ago
        "New place does not have to be better. It could be even worse. That could be part of the price of quitting criminal activity." Great. So you move to some other depressed community, which will have all of what you were trying to escape. Only now you have no support network, nobody who's got your back. Guess what that's a recipe for? It's not as easy as you make it sound.
        dennisgorelik 15y ago
        "Easy"? Who promised you that improving life would be easy?
    - shadowfiend 15y ago
      Well, for one thing, because they can tattle. For another, because they are crazy. Last but not least, when you've been in a gang since you were 10 or 12 or 14, psychologically speaking, you can't just go “a'ight, I'm out. Peace!” and untie yourself emotionally from the mentality of always having the backs of your fellow gang members. I ask honestly, but do you have any idea what you're talking about here? Here are two reference articles, one on empathizing with people in situations that are completely outside of your realm of experience: “A Muscular Empathy”: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/a-muscular-empathy/249984/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/a-muscul... ’If you really want to understand slaves, slave masters, poor black kids, poor white kids, rich people of colors, whoever, it is essential that you first come to grips with the disturbing facts of your own mediocrity. The first rule is this--You are not extraordinary. It's all fine and good to declare that you would have freed your slaves. But it's much more interesting to assume that you wouldn't and then ask "Why?"‘ And one on getting out of gangs and the psychological pull they still have even after you've decided to get gone: http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/02/06/the-draw-of-dead-town.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/02/06/the-draw-of... ‘"They'll say, 'What's wrong with you, sissy? What's wrong with you, faggot?' Misery loves company. They don't want to see you succeed because they're still in misery. 'He's doing good? F––– that fool.' A lot of kids fall away. They sabotage their success."’
- oz 15y ago
  Perhaps I'm assuming, but it seems you don't know much about the life of the poor. If they could afford to move from the projects where these gangs operate, don't you think they would in a heartbeat? The foot soldier in a gang is not making a lot of money - far from it. But your mom just got laid off, rent needs to be paid and your baby sister needs to be fed. So you do what you have to do. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility, and was as big a supporter of Randian thought as one could be without ever reading any of her book. But as I grew up and got exposed to The Real World, I realized that many times we are the victims of circumstances which seem to conspire against us. So it's not always easy to just up and move to another side of the country.
  - dennisgorelik 15y ago
    I know from my own experience about being poor. How about family of 4 living on less than $100/month income? That's me as a teenager 20 years ago as a member of said family. I never implied that quitting criminal gang is easy. The hardest part though is to overcome greed and change mentality. Unemployed mom and baby sister would likely to be better off without criminal gang member in the family.
    - shadowfiend 15y ago
      Would they? Recall that gangs are partially a matter of self-defense. You join a gang because otherwise rival gangs try to hurt or kill you. You join to defend your family. At least that's the story they spin. Once you buy into the story, it becomes even harder to convince yourself that it's a good idea to leave. I do not claim to know your past. But I know my parents were also poor, and the difference between them and the other kids who were poor around them who never moved up was in their parenting and their education. They ended up in a situation where they could pull out because of that education, and they ended up with certain mindsets that stemmed from the parenting they received. If you don't have one or, often, both of those, you're basically hosed. Not completely, mind you, but the jump needed to pull yourself out of poverty becomes massively bigger. And if you're immersed in a culture where violence is the norm and gangs are the only way to gain serious social acceptance at a young age, you've got even more working against you. I'm really not sure why you're bringing greed into this. Most of the members in gangs are in no way rich. The leaders might be (and even that is not necessarily the case), but the members are not.

jmilloy 15y ago

If you have kept up with this particular friend so that you know his current situation, then you have not removed yourself from the moral dilemma. Glad you got out, and there may be other reasons not to turn someone in, but this is a bad excuse.

m0nastic 15y ago
I should be clear, I haven't seen any of these people in many many years. The situation I've explained was how things were set up when I last had any contact with Colin. I haven't heard anything since, so I assume things are progressing more or less the same.
- dennisgorelik 15y ago
  May be not exactly the same. Colin might be in jail by now. Or quit his criminal business. Or "pivoted" it to legitimate car repair business. GPS tracking devices are much cheaper. There are much more surveillance cameras than 10 years ago. That could significantly reduce car hijacking business.

kinkora 15y ago

Good to know you got yourself out of the situation. Funnily enough, I did exactly that too; I left it as it is and eventually moved on from where I grew up and lost contact with my friend. Still, I've always felt a tingle of guilt every time someone looses something valuable at the cinema. It always reminded me that if everyone runs away from a problem, nobody will solve the issue. Being slightly older (and maybe wiser) now, what I should have done is try to find a way to convince her to stop stealing. Anyway, thanks for your reply!