4 ms·

That we’re still debating this stuff is ridiculous, everyone seems to be trying to create a narrative out of actions performed with good intentions and imperfec

That we’re still debating this stuff is ridiculous, everyone seems to be trying to create a narrative out of actions performed with good intentions and imperfect information. I think Twitter and the press had an almost impossible job attempting to manage public health messaging. There does not need to be a red vs blue debate on this as if it’s some religious war. The way it’s debated verges on conspiracy theory to me. I can’t believe how well Germany did with masking, testing and vaccination mandates to be able to take part in society again and consequently they have 1/3 fewer deaths than the comparably more open UK. A lot of people’s parents would still be with us if the UK and US weren’t divided and arguing about pointless stuff when we have loads of evidence the societies with more locking down and more extreme interventions saved more lives.

jacquesm 4y ago
Elon is doing his level best to create more controversy and hence more eyeballs. He also doesn't give a care about the damage to society that may cause as long as it increases the chances of his finances remaining solid.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Right or wrong, you've completely missed the point. Some people felt it wasn't worth the slightest bit of sacrifice to save other's lives. Some people felt all human life was sacred and we should've done everything possible to save every last day of every person's life. The vast majority of people were in the messy middle, and the debate centered around how much we should give up to save lives - especially when it might have long-term negative consequences. A lot of people were willing to isolate and wear masks - and the debate centered around whether the government has the right (or should) force people to do those things. A lot of people thought if you can't force everyone - it's a suckers game. Why should I isolate when other people aren't, and the effects are minimized - etc. It's not as simple as "mask and isolation good", even if there is good evidence it worked for the initial strains of Covid.
- andy_ppp 4y ago
  The debate of a toddler frustrated at having a seatbelt put on in a car.
  - MikeLumos 4y ago
    That's a big part of the problem - a group of people have unilaterally decided that they're the grown up ones, and they know better, and dismiss everyone else as toddlers. Using that wonderful justification, they proceeded to censor everyone who disagrees with them, including the points of view that later turned out to be correct. When you decide that you're a smart adult, declare every dissenting viewpoint to be "disinformation", and, therefore, you get to decide for other people what they do or do not get to read or think, and then you get it wrong, people will be justifiably upset. Even if you get it right, people will be upset. So here's a wild suggestion - why not treat other human beings as adults capable of making up their own minds about things?
    - andy_ppp 4y ago
      They are turning on the microchips Bill Gates implanted in everyone any day now. Even Trump has had 3+ vaccines. I don’t really understand what we are debating as two equivalent sides here.
      - ohCh6zos 4y ago
        This is an exceptionally uncharitable interpretation of GP's statement.
        andy_ppp 4y ago
        Its funny because I find all the Prosecute/Fauci conspiracy theories about gain of function research, unproven/unprovable Wuhan lab leak theories and pizza gate and anti-vax and that Trump + Fox News anchors are triple jabbed all while whipping up lies to gain political capital “exceptionally uncharitable” myself.
- 4y ago
SuperNinKenDo 4y ago
Maybe, with their imperfect information, they shouldn't have decided they had the right to police information.
harryf 4y ago
> That we’re still debating this stuff is ridiculous That people are still using “move along nothing to see here” is ridiculous. The world just went through an event of a historical significance comparable to a World War. And there are still new books, movies and documentaries being made about World War 1 and 2… There are a lot more questions to be asked and lessons to be learned about how COVID was handled. For example we’ve yet to have accurate public data on suicide rates during the lockdowns…
- tux2bsd 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 4y ago
    Can you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments and using HN primarily for ideological battle? We ban accounts that do these things, regardless of which flavor they're battling for. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - tux2bsd 4y ago
      > We ban accounts that do these things, regardless of which flavor they're battling for. I don't believe the latter half of that sentence but sure, I'll tone it down.
      - dang 4y ago
        I'm not going to claim anything about relative proportions but if you look through my moderation comments (not that I recommend doing so), you'll find plenty of examples of the other side getting banned for the same reasons. Or you could just look at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 and see how bitterly they complain about it. (I don't remember anything about which side you're on, but the above is all true either way.)
zimpenfish 4y ago
> the comparably more open UK. To counter that, the UK is almost certainly much more governmentally corrupt and incompetent than Germany which lead to most of the issues dealing with the pandemic.
brigandish 4y ago
> we have loads of evidence the societies with more locking down and more extreme interventions saved more lives Japan had no lockdowns (because current law prevents such government overreach). Would you like to compare death figures between the more populace and much older and therefore, on the face of it, much higher risk Japan, with Germany?
- stonogo 4y ago
  Japan, famously possessed of a masking tradition which long predates COVID-19 and equally famously possessed of hundreds of thousands of shut-ins pre-pandemic ('Hikikomori'). Not a useful comparator to a nation that had neither.
  - philjohn 4y ago
    And a highly evolved contact tracing operation because they learned the lessons from SARS.
  - brigandish 4y ago
    The masking had no effect on either influenza, of which it suffered regular pandemics, nor COVID-19, as even though people wore them at work and, laughably, outside in the open air a) the virus is aerosolised b) Japan still experienced large waves of infections c) the masks used are not of the requisite quality nor used properly (if you've ever had the horror to witness an old man pull down his mask to cough because he doesn't want to sully the mask, which perhaps he wants to wear tomorrow too, you'll know what I mean) d) most transmission occurs at home, which may be the only place Japanese people do not usually bother with masks e) Hikikomori is a real social phenomena in Japan but the vast majority of people are not hikikomori, nor did most people isolate. Even at the height of "soft lockdown" there were still lots of people moving around and work from home was still not something widespread.
- jltsiren 4y ago
  Japan managed to secure its national borders tightly. Once you were inside the "lockdown facility", which was effectively the entire country, you could continue living more or less as before. Other countries had to resort to internal lockdowns, because land borders are harder to secure. Cross-border truck traffic was particularly problematic, as it involves a large number of people crossing borders and continuing inland without any quarantine. Legal issues also made the borders more porous, for example by not having sufficient testing and quarantine requirements for returning citizens. And widespread individualism made voluntary measures less effective, because people were less likely to follow the self-isolation and testing recommendations.

jacquesm 4y ago

Elon is doing his level best to create more controversy and hence more eyeballs. He also doesn't give a care about the damage to society that may cause as long as it increases the chances of his finances remaining solid.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

Right or wrong, you've completely missed the point. Some people felt it wasn't worth the slightest bit of sacrifice to save other's lives. Some people felt all human life was sacred and we should've done everything possible to save every last day of every person's life. The vast majority of people were in the messy middle, and the debate centered around how much we should give up to save lives - especially when it might have long-term negative consequences. A lot of people were willing to isolate and wear masks - and the debate centered around whether the government has the right (or should) force people to do those things. A lot of people thought if you can't force everyone - it's a suckers game. Why should I isolate when other people aren't, and the effects are minimized - etc. It's not as simple as "mask and isolation good", even if there is good evidence it worked for the initial strains of Covid.

andy_ppp 4y ago
The debate of a toddler frustrated at having a seatbelt put on in a car.
- MikeLumos 4y ago
  That's a big part of the problem - a group of people have unilaterally decided that they're the grown up ones, and they know better, and dismiss everyone else as toddlers. Using that wonderful justification, they proceeded to censor everyone who disagrees with them, including the points of view that later turned out to be correct. When you decide that you're a smart adult, declare every dissenting viewpoint to be "disinformation", and, therefore, you get to decide for other people what they do or do not get to read or think, and then you get it wrong, people will be justifiably upset. Even if you get it right, people will be upset. So here's a wild suggestion - why not treat other human beings as adults capable of making up their own minds about things?
  - andy_ppp 4y ago
    They are turning on the microchips Bill Gates implanted in everyone any day now. Even Trump has had 3+ vaccines. I don’t really understand what we are debating as two equivalent sides here.
    - ohCh6zos 4y ago
      This is an exceptionally uncharitable interpretation of GP's statement.
      - andy_ppp 4y ago
        Its funny because I find all the Prosecute/Fauci conspiracy theories about gain of function research, unproven/unprovable Wuhan lab leak theories and pizza gate and anti-vax and that Trump + Fox News anchors are triple jabbed all while whipping up lies to gain political capital “exceptionally uncharitable” myself.
4y ago

SuperNinKenDo 4y ago

Maybe, with their imperfect information, they shouldn't have decided they had the right to police information.

harryf 4y ago

> That we’re still debating this stuff is ridiculous That people are still using “move along nothing to see here” is ridiculous. The world just went through an event of a historical significance comparable to a World War. And there are still new books, movies and documentaries being made about World War 1 and 2… There are a lot more questions to be asked and lessons to be learned about how COVID was handled. For example we’ve yet to have accurate public data on suicide rates during the lockdowns…

tux2bsd 4y ago
[flagged]
- dang 4y ago
  Can you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments and using HN primarily for ideological battle? We ban accounts that do these things, regardless of which flavor they're battling for. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - tux2bsd 4y ago
    > We ban accounts that do these things, regardless of which flavor they're battling for. I don't believe the latter half of that sentence but sure, I'll tone it down.
    - dang 4y ago
      I'm not going to claim anything about relative proportions but if you look through my moderation comments (not that I recommend doing so), you'll find plenty of examples of the other side getting banned for the same reasons. Or you could just look at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 and see how bitterly they complain about it. (I don't remember anything about which side you're on, but the above is all true either way.)

zimpenfish 4y ago

> the comparably more open UK. To counter that, the UK is almost certainly much more governmentally corrupt and incompetent than Germany which lead to most of the issues dealing with the pandemic.

brigandish 4y ago

> we have loads of evidence the societies with more locking down and more extreme interventions saved more lives Japan had no lockdowns (because current law prevents such government overreach). Would you like to compare death figures between the more populace and much older and therefore, on the face of it, much higher risk Japan, with Germany?

stonogo 4y ago
Japan, famously possessed of a masking tradition which long predates COVID-19 and equally famously possessed of hundreds of thousands of shut-ins pre-pandemic ('Hikikomori'). Not a useful comparator to a nation that had neither.
- philjohn 4y ago
  And a highly evolved contact tracing operation because they learned the lessons from SARS.
- brigandish 4y ago
  The masking had no effect on either influenza, of which it suffered regular pandemics, nor COVID-19, as even though people wore them at work and, laughably, outside in the open air a) the virus is aerosolised b) Japan still experienced large waves of infections c) the masks used are not of the requisite quality nor used properly (if you've ever had the horror to witness an old man pull down his mask to cough because he doesn't want to sully the mask, which perhaps he wants to wear tomorrow too, you'll know what I mean) d) most transmission occurs at home, which may be the only place Japanese people do not usually bother with masks e) Hikikomori is a real social phenomena in Japan but the vast majority of people are not hikikomori, nor did most people isolate. Even at the height of "soft lockdown" there were still lots of people moving around and work from home was still not something widespread.
jltsiren 4y ago
Japan managed to secure its national borders tightly. Once you were inside the "lockdown facility", which was effectively the entire country, you could continue living more or less as before. Other countries had to resort to internal lockdowns, because land borders are harder to secure. Cross-border truck traffic was particularly problematic, as it involves a large number of people crossing borders and continuing inland without any quarantine. Legal issues also made the borders more porous, for example by not having sufficient testing and quarantine requirements for returning citizens. And widespread individualism made voluntary measures less effective, because people were less likely to follow the self-isolation and testing recommendations.