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I felt worse for these guys until I read to the end of the letter and found out about the "HiGear girls". It's not quite as bad as I thought because they don't

I felt worse for these guys until I read to the end of the letter and found out about the "HiGear girls". It's not quite as bad as I thought because they don't seem to "rent out" these models like they do cars; I guess it was just a publicity thing. But still, having revealing pictures and even stats (measurements) of the women is pretty much the definition of objectification. FOLLOWUP (responding to comments): I'm not concerned about the women in the pictures. They freely chose it, and made enough money to make it worth it to them. But things that reinforce the societal ideal that women's value comes from being conventionally attractive is much more deeply damaging than most people realize. It leads to the body image issues that the majority of young women grapple with. Anything that makes it seem like numbers define how attractive you are is especially bad, because it makes it harder for people to accept their own non-ideal bodies as beautiful. It encourages young women to spend vast amounts of their free time learning about and working on being attractive rather than, say, tinkering with computers. To some extent, it leads to income inequality between men and women (Girls grow up with the message that pleasing men, by being attractive among other ways, is good, so they tend to up more passive in many situations. This makes them less willing to negotiate for salary, less willing to go out of their way to take credit for their work, etc. It also leads to other bad things like being less willing to say no to sex.) I like seeing racy pictures of girls as much as the next guy, but displays of women like this, especially right next to and in the same format as rental listings, encourages societal ideals that are at the root of most of the gender-related problems in our society.

packetslave 15y ago
"having revealing pictures and even stats (measurements) of the women is pretty much the definition of objectification." I imagine if the women in question didn't want to be objectified, they were free to not accept the money.
- yanowitz 15y ago
  (Three replies essentially all said the same thing. I'll respond to this one.) Enslavement should not be the standard by which we assess the effect of such actions. Under capitalism, we should expect to see people trading their labor (or image) for money. The more interesting questions include: why is this marketing pursued? How does it fit into a tapestry of cultural "norms" that objectify and demean women? What effect does it have on all the people (men and women, boys and girls) who "consume" it? The origins and continued existence of "car chicks", "beer girls", and "booth babes" has nothing to do with empowering women by creating new labor niches. It is a reflection and extension of a sexist society and culture.
  - rokhayakebe 15y ago
    I agree entirely, but you know what. It's women who decide to pursue this route as opposed to another. Some women just like to be in front of the camera with as little cloth as possible, as well as men (EDIT: I think we forget guys do this too). If you live such lifestyle, you cannot complain later about how society views you.
    - marquis 15y ago
      I compel you to consider the life narrative of women and men who choose to be objectified sexually: I believe you will find that none of them thought when they were young, 'I want to grow up to be objectified for my body'. It is not so much 'I can get paid for this' but more of 'In what other way can I get paid?'. There are exceptions of course as in all cases, some workers have a high degree of control and as long as they have great working conditions and a say in how they do their job I have no problem with the industry but again, my first sentence applies. In the case of these Hi Gear girls, I cannot speak for them but likely they were simply hired by a modeling agency and have no particular commitment to the car company itself.
schwit 15y ago
"having revealing pictures and even stats (measurements) of the women is pretty much the definition of objectification." So what? I don't recall reading anything that indicates these women were forced to do anything against their will.
mattdeboard 15y ago
Sexy cars and pin-up girls have gone hand-in-hand for generations, and probably always will. Are you really outraged at the notion of dudes wanting to look at hot girls?
- notJim 15y ago
  I believe your parent finds the notion of using objectification of women to rent cars distasteful. I know I do. Just as many find the Godaddy girls distasteful.
  - hessenwolf 15y ago
    Yes - everybody is free to disagree with me, but I also got to that point in the article and their objectifications reduced my sympathy significantly. It just seemed trashy.
  - ChrisNorstrom 15y ago
    What about the notion of using men to sell violence? Wrestling toys for kids, GI Joy action figures etc... This goes both ways. Both men and women are stereotyped.
    - notJim 15y ago
      Yes, I am against those as well.
- rmc 15y ago
  Just because something has happened for ages doesn't make it right. Societies change (e.g. we let women and the common man vote now). (Also, not all men want gto look at hot girls)
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    (Also, not all men want gto look at hot girls) No, but something around 90% of men do. Sex sells, people need to get over that.
yanowitz 15y ago
I came here to post this too. I felt bad for them until I got to the "girls" part, at which point I didn't feel bad. Although they didn't go out of business because of their sexist business practices, I don't shed a tear for them. Yes, this is a marketing stunt, but I hope the day comes when the cost of this marketing outweighs the benefit (i.e., more people find the objectification of women offensive to the point of changing their purchasing decision than people who find it appealing). This is related to a common theme on HN: discussions of why there are not more women in tech and tech leadership positions.
- mattdeboard 15y ago
  No, it's completely unrelated. The only topic this is related to is, "Why do people care so much what women do, of their own free will, with their bodies?"
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - rimantas 15y ago
    I think this is the true sexism: to think that some are entitled to tell others what and how we should think about the women and what they should do. "No girls, you should not care about your body, go tinker with computers!"
  - rmc 15y ago
    Because there is a long history of sexism like this (that hasn't gone away) and sometimes its hard to figure out what actions are ok and what are part of the ancient régime.
    - jasonlotito 15y ago
      So, your solution is to ban women from being objectified, regardless of their opinion? Only women though, as they have a long history of being objectified.
burgerbrain 15y ago
I wonder what your opinion is on baseball cards.
- rmc 15y ago
  There isn't a history of baseball players being systematically repressed. Also all baseball players chose to be baseball players, and can easily choose to leave and not be in the group of 'baseball players'. Not so with women.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    Those models are free to leave modeling just as baseball players are free to leave baseball. The generic concept of "women" cannot disassociate themselves from the images of these particular models in the same way that the generic concept of "men" cannot disassociate themselves from the image of these particular baseball players. I find it hard to be concerned about either of these situations.
rokhayakebe 15y ago
"having revealing pictures and even stats (measurements) of the women is pretty much the definition of objectification." Interesting. What do you think about the info on Eharmony, Match and other dating sites: age, height, athletic, curvy, this, that? Objectification?
- beedogs 15y ago
  So you've decided to pick the most incongruous example possible (dating websites) to undermine his point that a car-sharing site was objectifying women?
lionhearted 15y ago
Well, c'mon, can we be real here? If a guy is paying $600 to $900 to rent a car for a few hours, he's probably trying to get girls or close a business deal. People don't do that just to hang out with their buddy, unless they've got silly-money, in which case they just own their own cars. Also, some of the shots were rather tasteful (others, not so much, but this one for instance) - http://www.higear.com/images/our_community/shar_large/shar_03.jpg http://www.higear.com/images/our_community/shar_large/shar_0...
- zerostar07 15y ago
  That's just perpetuating stereotypes that (i 'd like to think) we are now over with: Fancy cars make men rich, Girls drool over money, Cars are penis extensions. This was a service for douchebags, I 'm glad there weren't enough of them to keep it running.
  - stanleydrew 15y ago
    I'm fairly certain there are enough "douchebags" to keep this running. The service was apparently doing well before professional criminals got involved.
    - zerostar07 15y ago
      Damage like this is to be expected though (it could be much worse, something involving the human accessories that go with the cars). Airbnb took some beating from criminals. I have still hope that the douchebaggery estimates are not wrong
- joshu 15y ago
  I rent higher end stuff than higear offered. Way cheaper than owning. I just drive them around. Anyone that has financial sense and/or understands the hedonic treadmill will understand why. Fwiw the place I use doesn't have pictures of women with cars anywhere....
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
scrrr 15y ago
Parent and some others in this thread: What is wrong with you?? (Sorry, just typing out my initial thought when I read this page verbatim.) It's just marketing involving some attractive girls standing next to cars.. I don't understand why such comments get so many upvotes, really. And where such sentiment comes from. I really wonder if my parent comment's poster should claim to understand the problems of the majority of young women and the society impact of such pictures.
Shenglong 15y ago
it makes it harder for people to accept their own non-ideal bodies as beautiful That's because usually (if not always) non-ideal bodies are not beautiful. I feel like there's a giant disconnect between people like you (sweeping generalization, no offense intended) and people around me. You see a girl with some extra weight and you may think she should ignore it, and hop on a computer. Here, most (yes, most) of the girls go to the gym and exercise. Also, often the girls aren't even trying to please men. One friend of mine spends a lot of her time making Youtube videos on nail decoration. Do her thousands of followers think men will be irresistibly attracted to the detailed glitter polish on their nails? No. I understand your desire to make the genders equal, but I think you're being blinded because of it.
- rmc 15y ago
  That's because usually (if not always) non-ideal bodies are not beautiful people have different tastes. just look at gay men and straight men. they find different things attractive. there is no perfectly sexy/beautiful type. it's all subjective. for every person, there's someone who thinks they are beautiful.
  - sliverstorm 15y ago
    The statement that always throws me for a loop is, "Everyone is (physically) beautiful". Besides not making sense (right up there with "... and all the children are above average"), it seems irresponsible to actually embrace being unhealthy in the name of feeling good about yourself.
    - rmc 15y ago
      It's not the same as "all children are above average", since you're comparing a subjective evaluation (beauty) to an objective evaluation (e.g. reading skills). Neither am I saying that everyone is beautiful to everyone else, just that everyone is beautiful to someone. After all, there are some niche tastes. Just look at the gay community whose tastes can range from Bears (big chunky hairy guys) to twinks (young skinny femmy guys). For straight male equivalents, look at BBW, to Asian, to MILFs, to femdom/dominatrixes, etc. I am not advocating being unhealthy. There are many people who have a healthy lifestyle & fitness and body, and yet are not as skinny as many many models and 'attractive people'. The fashion industry does not promote healthy bodies.
rimantas 15y ago
Please, stop this crap. Or ban pictures of man and woman: god forbid someone will find them attractive! Attractive people are attractive, deal with it. Your last two paragraphs are just speculation. > Girls grow up with the message that pleasing men, > by being attractive among other ways, is good Cannot tell, if this is more naive or stupid. Girls grow up knowing that by being attractive they will be able manipulate men, not to please them :)
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
goblin89 15y ago
> Things that reinforce the societal ideal that women's value comes from being conventionally attractive is much more deeply damaging than most people realize. AFAIK being conventionally attractive comes from being a healthy individual. For a long time we were selecting our mate by (in large part) how healthy he/she is, and getting rid of that habit wouldn't to any good to humans long term, I guess. (In fact, it would arguably do more good if such ‘objectification’ was common for men.)
paganel 15y ago
> I like seeing racy pictures of girls as much as the next guy, but displays of women like this, especially right next to and in the same format as rental listings, encourages societal ideals that are at the root of most of the gender-related problems in our society Well, it can very easily go both ways. Just in the last week I was asked by 2 different women (rather smart, otherwise) about "how much I earn". I honestly didn't know how to explain to them that at this early point in getting to know someone how much the person in front of you earns has no significance whatsoever.
- nandemo 15y ago
  On the contrary, it does have significance. Middle-class women don't usually date lower class men. If you live in a country or area where the class divide is significant this will obvious. The problem is not that they care about how much money you make, but that they were too clumsy on their "investigation".
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
jerrya 15y ago
I like seeing racy pictures of girls as much as the next guy Think globally, act locally, I say, and those look like women to me, and adults, not girls. I think you have some work to do on your own before judging HiGear.
SkyMarshal 15y ago
And there's a flip side to female objectification - male zombification. As a modern male, I'm pretty damn sick of 'sex sells', especially when the thing being sold has nothing whatsoever to do with sex. Want to use racy ads and associations to try to get me to buy lingerie for my gf, or condoms from your website? Ok fine. But, ahem, Godaddy, are you seriously trying to persuade me to buy internet domains from you using a sex sells strategy? Godaddy girls? Really? I couldn't think of anything less relevant. But that's the problem - when men are bombarded with messages and images that link things that have no connection whatsoever, over time it actually does create a connection by weakening the critical faculties necessary to reject the association in the first place, and makes men more vulnerable to manipulation, power of suggestion, etc.. Moreso in some men than others. Sex is one of the most powerful concepts to link to totally irrelevant products or services since it triggers our ape subroutines. See the same associations enough, and when it actually comes time to evaluate a purchase or other decision, those ape subroutines have more influence and control vs. your reasoning and critical faculties than they should. This effect is pervasive and pernicious. So, the flip side of female objectification is male zombification, or a weakening of critical and reasoning faculties. It's not just females that suffer from female objectification in the media.
ChrisNorstrom 15y ago
Fixed that for you: But things that reinforce the societal ideal that men's value comes from being conventionally big and strong is much more deeply damaging than most people realize. It leads to the body image issues that the majority of young men grapple with. Anything that makes it seem like numbers define how tall and strong you are is especially bad, because it makes it harder for men to accept their own non-ideal bodies as strong. It encourages young men to spend vast amounts of their free time learning about and working on being strong and muscular rather than, say, being productive, peaceful, starting a family. To some extent, it leads to happiness inequality between men and women (men grow up with the message that being emotionless is good, so they tend to keep emotions, feelings, pain hidden. This makes them less willing to seek help for depression, anger management problems, and more willing to be violent to get what they want. It also leads to other bad things like having no self discipline over their sex drive and thinking it's ok to fuck anything that moves, thus resulting in divorce, embarrassment, and losing millions of dollars and destroying their political careers or livelihood. ex: tiger woods and the countless other men like him who had it all and fucked it up.) I like seeing racy pictures of shirtless guys as much as the next girl, but displays of men like this, especially wrestling action figures, or overly muscular super heroes, encourages societal ideals that are at the root of most of the gender-related problems in our society. (not that you were wrong, just showing you the opposite)

packetslave 15y ago

"having revealing pictures and even stats (measurements) of the women is pretty much the definition of objectification." I imagine if the women in question didn't want to be objectified, they were free to not accept the money.

yanowitz 15y ago
(Three replies essentially all said the same thing. I'll respond to this one.) Enslavement should not be the standard by which we assess the effect of such actions. Under capitalism, we should expect to see people trading their labor (or image) for money. The more interesting questions include: why is this marketing pursued? How does it fit into a tapestry of cultural "norms" that objectify and demean women? What effect does it have on all the people (men and women, boys and girls) who "consume" it? The origins and continued existence of "car chicks", "beer girls", and "booth babes" has nothing to do with empowering women by creating new labor niches. It is a reflection and extension of a sexist society and culture.
- rokhayakebe 15y ago
  I agree entirely, but you know what. It's women who decide to pursue this route as opposed to another. Some women just like to be in front of the camera with as little cloth as possible, as well as men (EDIT: I think we forget guys do this too). If you live such lifestyle, you cannot complain later about how society views you.
  - marquis 15y ago
    I compel you to consider the life narrative of women and men who choose to be objectified sexually: I believe you will find that none of them thought when they were young, 'I want to grow up to be objectified for my body'. It is not so much 'I can get paid for this' but more of 'In what other way can I get paid?'. There are exceptions of course as in all cases, some workers have a high degree of control and as long as they have great working conditions and a say in how they do their job I have no problem with the industry but again, my first sentence applies. In the case of these Hi Gear girls, I cannot speak for them but likely they were simply hired by a modeling agency and have no particular commitment to the car company itself.

schwit 15y ago

"having revealing pictures and even stats (measurements) of the women is pretty much the definition of objectification." So what? I don't recall reading anything that indicates these women were forced to do anything against their will.

mattdeboard 15y ago

Sexy cars and pin-up girls have gone hand-in-hand for generations, and probably always will. Are you really outraged at the notion of dudes wanting to look at hot girls?

notJim 15y ago
I believe your parent finds the notion of using objectification of women to rent cars distasteful. I know I do. Just as many find the Godaddy girls distasteful.
- hessenwolf 15y ago
  Yes - everybody is free to disagree with me, but I also got to that point in the article and their objectifications reduced my sympathy significantly. It just seemed trashy.
- ChrisNorstrom 15y ago
  What about the notion of using men to sell violence? Wrestling toys for kids, GI Joy action figures etc... This goes both ways. Both men and women are stereotyped.
  - notJim 15y ago
    Yes, I am against those as well.
rmc 15y ago
Just because something has happened for ages doesn't make it right. Societies change (e.g. we let women and the common man vote now). (Also, not all men want gto look at hot girls)
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  (Also, not all men want gto look at hot girls) No, but something around 90% of men do. Sex sells, people need to get over that.

yanowitz 15y ago

I came here to post this too. I felt bad for them until I got to the "girls" part, at which point I didn't feel bad. Although they didn't go out of business because of their sexist business practices, I don't shed a tear for them. Yes, this is a marketing stunt, but I hope the day comes when the cost of this marketing outweighs the benefit (i.e., more people find the objectification of women offensive to the point of changing their purchasing decision than people who find it appealing). This is related to a common theme on HN: discussions of why there are not more women in tech and tech leadership positions.

mattdeboard 15y ago
No, it's completely unrelated. The only topic this is related to is, "Why do people care so much what women do, of their own free will, with their bodies?"
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- rimantas 15y ago
  I think this is the true sexism: to think that some are entitled to tell others what and how we should think about the women and what they should do. "No girls, you should not care about your body, go tinker with computers!"
- rmc 15y ago
  Because there is a long history of sexism like this (that hasn't gone away) and sometimes its hard to figure out what actions are ok and what are part of the ancient régime.
  - jasonlotito 15y ago
    So, your solution is to ban women from being objectified, regardless of their opinion? Only women though, as they have a long history of being objectified.

burgerbrain 15y ago

I wonder what your opinion is on baseball cards.

rmc 15y ago
There isn't a history of baseball players being systematically repressed. Also all baseball players chose to be baseball players, and can easily choose to leave and not be in the group of 'baseball players'. Not so with women.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  Those models are free to leave modeling just as baseball players are free to leave baseball. The generic concept of "women" cannot disassociate themselves from the images of these particular models in the same way that the generic concept of "men" cannot disassociate themselves from the image of these particular baseball players. I find it hard to be concerned about either of these situations.

rokhayakebe 15y ago

"having revealing pictures and even stats (measurements) of the women is pretty much the definition of objectification." Interesting. What do you think about the info on Eharmony, Match and other dating sites: age, height, athletic, curvy, this, that? Objectification?

beedogs 15y ago
So you've decided to pick the most incongruous example possible (dating websites) to undermine his point that a car-sharing site was objectifying women?

lionhearted 15y ago

Well, c'mon, can we be real here? If a guy is paying $600 to $900 to rent a car for a few hours, he's probably trying to get girls or close a business deal. People don't do that just to hang out with their buddy, unless they've got silly-money, in which case they just own their own cars. Also, some of the shots were rather tasteful (others, not so much, but this one for instance) - http://www.higear.com/images/our_community/shar_large/shar_03.jpg http://www.higear.com/images/our_community/shar_large/shar_0...

zerostar07 15y ago
That's just perpetuating stereotypes that (i 'd like to think) we are now over with: Fancy cars make men rich, Girls drool over money, Cars are penis extensions. This was a service for douchebags, I 'm glad there weren't enough of them to keep it running.
- stanleydrew 15y ago
  I'm fairly certain there are enough "douchebags" to keep this running. The service was apparently doing well before professional criminals got involved.
  - zerostar07 15y ago
    Damage like this is to be expected though (it could be much worse, something involving the human accessories that go with the cars). Airbnb took some beating from criminals. I have still hope that the douchebaggery estimates are not wrong
joshu 15y ago
I rent higher end stuff than higear offered. Way cheaper than owning. I just drive them around. Anyone that has financial sense and/or understands the hedonic treadmill will understand why. Fwiw the place I use doesn't have pictures of women with cars anywhere....

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

scrrr 15y ago

Parent and some others in this thread: What is wrong with you?? (Sorry, just typing out my initial thought when I read this page verbatim.) It's just marketing involving some attractive girls standing next to cars.. I don't understand why such comments get so many upvotes, really. And where such sentiment comes from. I really wonder if my parent comment's poster should claim to understand the problems of the majority of young women and the society impact of such pictures.

Shenglong 15y ago

it makes it harder for people to accept their own non-ideal bodies as beautiful That's because usually (if not always) non-ideal bodies are not beautiful. I feel like there's a giant disconnect between people like you (sweeping generalization, no offense intended) and people around me. You see a girl with some extra weight and you may think she should ignore it, and hop on a computer. Here, most (yes, most) of the girls go to the gym and exercise. Also, often the girls aren't even trying to please men. One friend of mine spends a lot of her time making Youtube videos on nail decoration. Do her thousands of followers think men will be irresistibly attracted to the detailed glitter polish on their nails? No. I understand your desire to make the genders equal, but I think you're being blinded because of it.

rmc 15y ago
That's because usually (if not always) non-ideal bodies are not beautiful people have different tastes. just look at gay men and straight men. they find different things attractive. there is no perfectly sexy/beautiful type. it's all subjective. for every person, there's someone who thinks they are beautiful.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  The statement that always throws me for a loop is, "Everyone is (physically) beautiful". Besides not making sense (right up there with "... and all the children are above average"), it seems irresponsible to actually embrace being unhealthy in the name of feeling good about yourself.
  - rmc 15y ago
    It's not the same as "all children are above average", since you're comparing a subjective evaluation (beauty) to an objective evaluation (e.g. reading skills). Neither am I saying that everyone is beautiful to everyone else, just that everyone is beautiful to someone. After all, there are some niche tastes. Just look at the gay community whose tastes can range from Bears (big chunky hairy guys) to twinks (young skinny femmy guys). For straight male equivalents, look at BBW, to Asian, to MILFs, to femdom/dominatrixes, etc. I am not advocating being unhealthy. There are many people who have a healthy lifestyle & fitness and body, and yet are not as skinny as many many models and 'attractive people'. The fashion industry does not promote healthy bodies.

rimantas 15y ago

Please, stop this crap. Or ban pictures of man and woman: god forbid someone will find them attractive! Attractive people are attractive, deal with it. Your last two paragraphs are just speculation. > Girls grow up with the message that pleasing men, > by being attractive among other ways, is good Cannot tell, if this is more naive or stupid. Girls grow up knowing that by being attractive they will be able manipulate men, not to please them :)

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

goblin89 15y ago

> Things that reinforce the societal ideal that women's value comes from being conventionally attractive is much more deeply damaging than most people realize. AFAIK being conventionally attractive comes from being a healthy individual. For a long time we were selecting our mate by (in large part) how healthy he/she is, and getting rid of that habit wouldn't to any good to humans long term, I guess. (In fact, it would arguably do more good if such ‘objectification’ was common for men.)

paganel 15y ago

> I like seeing racy pictures of girls as much as the next guy, but displays of women like this, especially right next to and in the same format as rental listings, encourages societal ideals that are at the root of most of the gender-related problems in our society Well, it can very easily go both ways. Just in the last week I was asked by 2 different women (rather smart, otherwise) about "how much I earn". I honestly didn't know how to explain to them that at this early point in getting to know someone how much the person in front of you earns has no significance whatsoever.

nandemo 15y ago
On the contrary, it does have significance. Middle-class women don't usually date lower class men. If you live in a country or area where the class divide is significant this will obvious. The problem is not that they care about how much money you make, but that they were too clumsy on their "investigation".

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

jerrya 15y ago

I like seeing racy pictures of girls as much as the next guy Think globally, act locally, I say, and those look like women to me, and adults, not girls. I think you have some work to do on your own before judging HiGear.

SkyMarshal 15y ago

And there's a flip side to female objectification - male zombification. As a modern male, I'm pretty damn sick of 'sex sells', especially when the thing being sold has nothing whatsoever to do with sex. Want to use racy ads and associations to try to get me to buy lingerie for my gf, or condoms from your website? Ok fine. But, ahem, Godaddy, are you seriously trying to persuade me to buy internet domains from you using a sex sells strategy? Godaddy girls? Really? I couldn't think of anything less relevant. But that's the problem - when men are bombarded with messages and images that link things that have no connection whatsoever, over time it actually does create a connection by weakening the critical faculties necessary to reject the association in the first place, and makes men more vulnerable to manipulation, power of suggestion, etc.. Moreso in some men than others. Sex is one of the most powerful concepts to link to totally irrelevant products or services since it triggers our ape subroutines. See the same associations enough, and when it actually comes time to evaluate a purchase or other decision, those ape subroutines have more influence and control vs. your reasoning and critical faculties than they should. This effect is pervasive and pernicious. So, the flip side of female objectification is male zombification, or a weakening of critical and reasoning faculties. It's not just females that suffer from female objectification in the media.

ChrisNorstrom 15y ago

Fixed that for you: But things that reinforce the societal ideal that men's value comes from being conventionally big and strong is much more deeply damaging than most people realize. It leads to the body image issues that the majority of young men grapple with. Anything that makes it seem like numbers define how tall and strong you are is especially bad, because it makes it harder for men to accept their own non-ideal bodies as strong. It encourages young men to spend vast amounts of their free time learning about and working on being strong and muscular rather than, say, being productive, peaceful, starting a family. To some extent, it leads to happiness inequality between men and women (men grow up with the message that being emotionless is good, so they tend to keep emotions, feelings, pain hidden. This makes them less willing to seek help for depression, anger management problems, and more willing to be violent to get what they want. It also leads to other bad things like having no self discipline over their sex drive and thinking it's ok to fuck anything that moves, thus resulting in divorce, embarrassment, and losing millions of dollars and destroying their political careers or livelihood. ex: tiger woods and the countless other men like him who had it all and fucked it up.) I like seeing racy pictures of shirtless guys as much as the next girl, but displays of men like this, especially wrestling action figures, or overly muscular super heroes, encourages societal ideals that are at the root of most of the gender-related problems in our society. (not that you were wrong, just showing you the opposite)