3 ms·

I recall very clearly a congress That's completely orthogonal to a comment being pure flamebait. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&quer

by pvg 4y ago

I recall very clearly a congress That's completely orthogonal to a comment being pure flamebait. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=author%3Adang%20infinitely%20facts%20&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

jacquesm 4y ago
What wording would satisfy your criteria of not being flame bait while still being allowed to discuss the subject?
- pvg 4y ago
  They're the site's criteria? You know them just as well as I do, I honestly don't get what you're asking.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Right here in this thread there are examples of precisely the sentiment that I tried to address with my comment. That's proof enough for me that those sentiments are alive and well and that is - from my perspective, at least - a pity. Given that there is again a war going on in Europe and that there are some pretty strong voices for Ukraine to surrender part - or even all - of their territory to Russia to save on the expense and because that is the inevitable outcome makes this sort of lack of historical awareness a real problem. You can disavow it, and I do not doubt that you do have that historical awareness but unfortunately the sentiment exists, is real and likely will be more and more forceful in the coming years. If France had had that attitude then likely the USA as we know it today would not exist, and for that the French deserve lasting recognition. It also underlines - at least for me - that we, the 'free world' are in this together and that if we don't stand united eventually we will fall. The French had plenty of reasons to question the Iraq war - some good, some not so good - but to be insulted like that was counterproductive, to put it mildly.
    - pvg 4y ago
      All sorts of sentiments are around in all sorts of threads. What you can't do is write sweeping generalizations about entire massive categories of people. It's a totally basic rule of any vaguely sane forum beside being simply common decency.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        Ok, so we'll do away with the sweeping generalizations and I'll try to rephrase it in a way that it is factually correct without stepping over those boundaries, let me know if it gets a pass or not: In France and amongst French people the prevailing sentiment is that an everlasting debt is owed to the United States and other allied forces that helped liberate France from the Germans at the conclusion of World War II. This is for instance apparent in the maintenance of war cemeteries, names of many streets and commemorative plaques and annual ceremonies. It is taught in schools from an early age and an important part of the history curriculum. No equivalent reciprocal feeling exist in the United States for the contribution that the French had to the origin story of that country. On the contrary, the French are often portrayed in negative ways when it comes to their stance with respect to engaging in military action, such as exemplified during the run-up to the Iraq war by certain elements of the United States administration and some of their followers. A number of Americans is unaware of the historical ties between France and the United States and has a negative view of France as an ally.
        pvg 4y ago
        It wouldn't have been flagged to pieces, that's for sure! As to factually correct, I dunno, I think you're falling for the same kind of stereotype that some Americans ascribe to the French. France's critical contribution to the American War of Independence is taught in schools. Sometimes in schools named after Lafayette, or in counties, towns, near streets or squares named after him. As is the fact that one of America's great symbols, the Statue of Liberty is a gift from France, etc, etc. This all reminds me of a bit from David Sedaris's humor/satirical book Me Talk Pretty One Day which I'm going to paste in here so we can wrap this up on a lighter note: I chickened out, realizing that I was afraid of France. My fear had nothing to do with the actual French people. I didn’t know any actual French people. What scared me was the idea of French people I’d gotten from movies and situation comedies. When someone makes a spectacular ass of himself, it’s always in a French restaurant, never a Japanese or Italian one. The French are the people who slap one another with gloves and wear scarves to cover their engorged hickies. My understanding was that, no matter how hard we tried, the French would never like us, and that’s confusing to an American raised to believe that the citizens of Europe should be grateful for all the wonderful things we’ve done. Things like movies that stereotype the people of France as boors and petty snobs, and little remarks such as “We saved your ass in World War II.” Every day we’re told that we live in the greatest country on earth. “And it’s always stated as an undeniable fact: Leos were born between July 23 and August 22, fitted queen-size sheets measure sixty by eighty inches, and America is the greatest country on earth. Having grown up with this in our ears, it’s startling to realize that other countries have nationalistic slogans of their own, none of which are “We’re number two!”

by pvg 4y ago

jacquesm 4y ago

What wording would satisfy your criteria of not being flame bait while still being allowed to discuss the subject?

pvg 4y ago
They're the site's criteria? You know them just as well as I do, I honestly don't get what you're asking.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Right here in this thread there are examples of precisely the sentiment that I tried to address with my comment. That's proof enough for me that those sentiments are alive and well and that is - from my perspective, at least - a pity. Given that there is again a war going on in Europe and that there are some pretty strong voices for Ukraine to surrender part - or even all - of their territory to Russia to save on the expense and because that is the inevitable outcome makes this sort of lack of historical awareness a real problem. You can disavow it, and I do not doubt that you do have that historical awareness but unfortunately the sentiment exists, is real and likely will be more and more forceful in the coming years. If France had had that attitude then likely the USA as we know it today would not exist, and for that the French deserve lasting recognition. It also underlines - at least for me - that we, the 'free world' are in this together and that if we don't stand united eventually we will fall. The French had plenty of reasons to question the Iraq war - some good, some not so good - but to be insulted like that was counterproductive, to put it mildly.
  - pvg 4y ago
    All sorts of sentiments are around in all sorts of threads. What you can't do is write sweeping generalizations about entire massive categories of people. It's a totally basic rule of any vaguely sane forum beside being simply common decency.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Ok, so we'll do away with the sweeping generalizations and I'll try to rephrase it in a way that it is factually correct without stepping over those boundaries, let me know if it gets a pass or not: In France and amongst French people the prevailing sentiment is that an everlasting debt is owed to the United States and other allied forces that helped liberate France from the Germans at the conclusion of World War II. This is for instance apparent in the maintenance of war cemeteries, names of many streets and commemorative plaques and annual ceremonies. It is taught in schools from an early age and an important part of the history curriculum. No equivalent reciprocal feeling exist in the United States for the contribution that the French had to the origin story of that country. On the contrary, the French are often portrayed in negative ways when it comes to their stance with respect to engaging in military action, such as exemplified during the run-up to the Iraq war by certain elements of the United States administration and some of their followers. A number of Americans is unaware of the historical ties between France and the United States and has a negative view of France as an ally.
      - pvg 4y ago
        It wouldn't have been flagged to pieces, that's for sure! As to factually correct, I dunno, I think you're falling for the same kind of stereotype that some Americans ascribe to the French. France's critical contribution to the American War of Independence is taught in schools. Sometimes in schools named after Lafayette, or in counties, towns, near streets or squares named after him. As is the fact that one of America's great symbols, the Statue of Liberty is a gift from France, etc, etc. This all reminds me of a bit from David Sedaris's humor/satirical book Me Talk Pretty One Day which I'm going to paste in here so we can wrap this up on a lighter note: I chickened out, realizing that I was afraid of France. My fear had nothing to do with the actual French people. I didn’t know any actual French people. What scared me was the idea of French people I’d gotten from movies and situation comedies. When someone makes a spectacular ass of himself, it’s always in a French restaurant, never a Japanese or Italian one. The French are the people who slap one another with gloves and wear scarves to cover their engorged hickies. My understanding was that, no matter how hard we tried, the French would never like us, and that’s confusing to an American raised to believe that the citizens of Europe should be grateful for all the wonderful things we’ve done. Things like movies that stereotype the people of France as boors and petty snobs, and little remarks such as “We saved your ass in World War II.” Every day we’re told that we live in the greatest country on earth. “And it’s always stated as an undeniable fact: Leos were born between July 23 and August 22, fitted queen-size sheets measure sixty by eighty inches, and America is the greatest country on earth. Having grown up with this in our ears, it’s startling to realize that other countries have nationalistic slogans of their own, none of which are “We’re number two!”