5 ms·

Which makes American[*] hatred and belittling Come on, you know can't asterisk your way out of that kind of bombastic, flamewar-inducing generalization.

by pvg 4y ago

jacquesm 4y ago
I recall very clearly a congress that decided to rename 'French Fries' to 'Freedom Fries' out of spite not all that long ago, with broad support. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_fries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_fries That sort of thing is a superficial indication of a lack of appreciation for history and signals that a surprisingly large fraction of the people has no idea of their past. You can try to diminish that but this is something that is fairly unique to the United States, I haven't seen that sort of sentiment anywhere else.
- pvg 4y ago
  I recall very clearly a congress That's completely orthogonal to a comment being pure flamebait. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=author%3Adang%20infinitely%20facts%20&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    What wording would satisfy your criteria of not being flame bait while still being allowed to discuss the subject?
    - pvg 4y ago
      They're the site's criteria? You know them just as well as I do, I honestly don't get what you're asking.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        Right here in this thread there are examples of precisely the sentiment that I tried to address with my comment. That's proof enough for me that those sentiments are alive and well and that is - from my perspective, at least - a pity. Given that there is again a war going on in Europe and that there are some pretty strong voices for Ukraine to surrender part - or even all - of their territory to Russia to save on the expense and because that is the inevitable outcome makes this sort of lack of historical awareness a real problem. You can disavow it, and I do not doubt that you do have that historical awareness but unfortunately the sentiment exists, is real and likely will be more and more forceful in the coming years. If France had had that attitude then likely the USA as we know it today would not exist, and for that the French deserve lasting recognition. It also underlines - at least for me - that we, the 'free world' are in this together and that if we don't stand united eventually we will fall. The French had plenty of reasons to question the Iraq war - some good, some not so good - but to be insulted like that was counterproductive, to put it mildly.
        pvg 4y ago
        All sorts of sentiments are around in all sorts of threads. What you can't do is write sweeping generalizations about entire massive categories of people. It's a totally basic rule of any vaguely sane forum beside being simply common decency.
        jacquesm 4y ago
        Ok, so we'll do away with the sweeping generalizations and I'll try to rephrase it in a way that it is factually correct without stepping over those boundaries, let me know if it gets a pass or not: In France and amongst French people the prevailing sentiment is that an everlasting debt is owed to the United States and other allied forces that helped liberate France from the Germans at the conclusion of World War II. This is for instance apparent in the maintenance of war cemeteries, names of many streets and commemorative plaques and annual ceremonies. It is taught in schools from an early age and an important part of the history curriculum. No equivalent reciprocal feeling exist in the United States for the contribution that the French had to the origin story of that country. On the contrary, the French are often portrayed in negative ways when it comes to their stance with respect to engaging in military action, such as exemplified during the run-up to the Iraq war by certain elements of the United States administration and some of their followers. A number of Americans is unaware of the historical ties between France and the United States and has a negative view of France as an ally.
- tptacek 4y ago
  I'm sorry, "broad support"? It was a national joke at the time, and remains one of the great national jokes of the past 20 years. It was polled at the time (God help us) and a supermajority reported the idea was "silly". No restaurant chain in the country participated; so far as I know, it was only at the House cafeteria. Come on. I call shenanigans. You can't play the "freedom fries" card. Find another one! (The implications of "freedom fries" is a much more interesting and curious conversation than the correct words to use to generalize across disfavored cohorts of Americans.)
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    I guarantee you that on this side of the pond it wasn't received as a joke. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CheeseEatingSurrenderMonkeys https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CheeseEatingSurr... You can downplay it all you want, the fact is that this sort of thing happens and it can't just be shrugged off by 'oh, we were just joking' because of the context in which those things happened. Symbolism is a thing and by having your official governing bodies involved you lose the 'it's just a joke' defense.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      Who's "we"? "We" didn't do it as a joke. We just took it as one once it happened. By "we" I mean something like 66% of Gallup respondents at the time.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        Gallup would do well to poll in Europe as well for such 'jokes'. Seriously: the US is a great country in many ways. But this sort of thing does enormous damage to its international reputation, much more than you might think. That joke became world news at the time and put the US in a very bad light. The person who made it happen (Walter Jones) eventually recanted and wished he had never done it (props to him), but the damage is real and lasting, and unfortunately reflects some aspect of American society that isn't all that nice. Just look at your own comment: if 66% of Americans polled see/saw it as a joke ('har har, those cowardly French, upset at a joke') that implies that 33% see it as reflecting reality. That's the thing you should be amazed at, rather than to trot it out as proof that it isn't a problem.

Which makes American[*] hatred and belittling Come on, you know can't asterisk your way out of that kind of bombastic, flamewar-inducing generalization.

by pvg 4y ago

Which makes American[*] hatred and belittling Come on, you know can't asterisk your way out of that kind of bombastic, flamewar-inducing generalization.

jacquesm 4y ago

I recall very clearly a congress that decided to rename 'French Fries' to 'Freedom Fries' out of spite not all that long ago, with broad support. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_fries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_fries That sort of thing is a superficial indication of a lack of appreciation for history and signals that a surprisingly large fraction of the people has no idea of their past. You can try to diminish that but this is something that is fairly unique to the United States, I haven't seen that sort of sentiment anywhere else.

pvg 4y ago
I recall very clearly a congress That's completely orthogonal to a comment being pure flamebait. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=author%3Adang%20infinitely%20facts%20&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- jacquesm 4y ago
  What wording would satisfy your criteria of not being flame bait while still being allowed to discuss the subject?
  - pvg 4y ago
    They're the site's criteria? You know them just as well as I do, I honestly don't get what you're asking.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Right here in this thread there are examples of precisely the sentiment that I tried to address with my comment. That's proof enough for me that those sentiments are alive and well and that is - from my perspective, at least - a pity. Given that there is again a war going on in Europe and that there are some pretty strong voices for Ukraine to surrender part - or even all - of their territory to Russia to save on the expense and because that is the inevitable outcome makes this sort of lack of historical awareness a real problem. You can disavow it, and I do not doubt that you do have that historical awareness but unfortunately the sentiment exists, is real and likely will be more and more forceful in the coming years. If France had had that attitude then likely the USA as we know it today would not exist, and for that the French deserve lasting recognition. It also underlines - at least for me - that we, the 'free world' are in this together and that if we don't stand united eventually we will fall. The French had plenty of reasons to question the Iraq war - some good, some not so good - but to be insulted like that was counterproductive, to put it mildly.
      - pvg 4y ago
        All sorts of sentiments are around in all sorts of threads. What you can't do is write sweeping generalizations about entire massive categories of people. It's a totally basic rule of any vaguely sane forum beside being simply common decency.
        jacquesm 4y ago
        Ok, so we'll do away with the sweeping generalizations and I'll try to rephrase it in a way that it is factually correct without stepping over those boundaries, let me know if it gets a pass or not: In France and amongst French people the prevailing sentiment is that an everlasting debt is owed to the United States and other allied forces that helped liberate France from the Germans at the conclusion of World War II. This is for instance apparent in the maintenance of war cemeteries, names of many streets and commemorative plaques and annual ceremonies. It is taught in schools from an early age and an important part of the history curriculum. No equivalent reciprocal feeling exist in the United States for the contribution that the French had to the origin story of that country. On the contrary, the French are often portrayed in negative ways when it comes to their stance with respect to engaging in military action, such as exemplified during the run-up to the Iraq war by certain elements of the United States administration and some of their followers. A number of Americans is unaware of the historical ties between France and the United States and has a negative view of France as an ally.
tptacek 4y ago
I'm sorry, "broad support"? It was a national joke at the time, and remains one of the great national jokes of the past 20 years. It was polled at the time (God help us) and a supermajority reported the idea was "silly". No restaurant chain in the country participated; so far as I know, it was only at the House cafeteria. Come on. I call shenanigans. You can't play the "freedom fries" card. Find another one! (The implications of "freedom fries" is a much more interesting and curious conversation than the correct words to use to generalize across disfavored cohorts of Americans.)
- jacquesm 4y ago
  I guarantee you that on this side of the pond it wasn't received as a joke. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CheeseEatingSurrenderMonkeys https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CheeseEatingSurr... You can downplay it all you want, the fact is that this sort of thing happens and it can't just be shrugged off by 'oh, we were just joking' because of the context in which those things happened. Symbolism is a thing and by having your official governing bodies involved you lose the 'it's just a joke' defense.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Who's "we"? "We" didn't do it as a joke. We just took it as one once it happened. By "we" I mean something like 66% of Gallup respondents at the time.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Gallup would do well to poll in Europe as well for such 'jokes'. Seriously: the US is a great country in many ways. But this sort of thing does enormous damage to its international reputation, much more than you might think. That joke became world news at the time and put the US in a very bad light. The person who made it happen (Walter Jones) eventually recanted and wished he had never done it (props to him), but the damage is real and lasting, and unfortunately reflects some aspect of American society that isn't all that nice. Just look at your own comment: if 66% of Americans polled see/saw it as a joke ('har har, those cowardly French, upset at a joke') that implies that 33% see it as reflecting reality. That's the thing you should be amazed at, rather than to trot it out as proof that it isn't a problem.