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> The only fraud you still get is friendly fraud from buyers. I’ve been bitten by this. I thoroughly tested a PC part, packed it in original anti-static packag

> The only fraud you still get is friendly fraud from buyers. I’ve been bitten by this. I thoroughly tested a PC part, packed it in original anti-static packaging, packed that inside of an excessive amount of packaging and a thick box, and then shipped it all via a well-tracked shipping method. Buyer waited until a day before the end of the claim period and then insisted the part didn’t work. Wouldn’t cooperate with any debug questions so I grudgingly authorized a return. Buyer never returned anything, never even provided return tracking info. Yet he’s been escalating this to eBay and now filing a chargeback with his credit card company. After less than 10 minutes with eBay support, they admit that this buyer has a pattern of doing this exact scam. Just follow the steps and provide the requested info and I’ll be fine, they said. I’m blown away that they know a buyer has a habit of doing this, yet continue to let them operate on the platform. Losing the couple hundred dollars wouldn’t be the end of the world, but I’m deeply frustrated that eBay is so heavily tilted toward the buyer that someone can develop a pattern of fraudulent chargebacks and false complaints with apparently no consequences.

AussieWog93 4y ago
Support's right, you'll win the case. If they open a return case, they need to send the item back. Happens all the time to us. >I’m deeply frustrated that eBay is so heavily tilted toward the buyer Their answer to this criticism is that siding with the buyer by default creates trust, which encourages more buyers to use the platform and therefore increases sales volume for their seller. I'm honestly inclined to agree. I'd much rather lose 1% of our revenue each year to fraud and unnecessary returns than 50% through buyer hesitation because they're not sure their items will work or even arrive.
- buck4roo 4y ago
  Counterfeits, fraud, and theft: Why Silca changed its return policy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32362363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32362363 Good insight into the merchant side of customer return fraud.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >Their answer to this criticism is that siding with the buyer by default creates trust, which encourages more buyers to use the platform and therefore increases sales volume for their seller. I'm honestly inclined to agree. I'm not: it depends on the seller. If you're a high-volume seller, then sure: a few bad transactions like this overall is the "price of doing business" because the popularity of the platform means you'll do much more sales volume, which more than makes up for a few shitty buyers. However, if you're a low-volume seller who's just using Ebay to sell your old stuff, with only a very small number of higher-value items sold per year, then even a single bad transaction like this can ruin your profit and make it not worth it to sell on this platform. Personally, I'm much more inclined to sell high-value stuff via Facebook Marketplace, in-person only, because of this possibility. Add in Ebay's high fees and FBM is really attractive, but the problem is you're limited to people in your local area. However, Ebay years ago decided they cared much more about the high-volume sellers than the regular Joes using it as a virtual garage sale venue, so this makes sense for Ebay and increasing their stock price. To be fair though, in my years of using Ebay as a low-volume individual, I haven't had many bad transactions, and have been able to sell off a lot of stuff.
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  > Support's right, you'll win the case. If they open a return case, they need to send the item back. Happens all the time to us. Haha, this is optimistic. I'm 99% a buyer (hundreds of items bought, and three items sold, and never again). I sold a Mavic 2 Pro drone with 5 batteries. The whole process was a mess. Buyer complained that it didn't come with the CrystalSky tablet in one picture (that was only added after the buyer started bidding was requested BY the buyer, to show Flight Logs, was explicitly disclaimed as being a part of the package, and was not in the receipts I sent the buyer). After pointing out those details, silence. Then, three weeks later: "The batteries don't work." "Any of them?" "Nope. I want a refund." Note that two of the batteries were less than 4 months old, still in warranty. He then stated he wanted a refund of $800. Bear in mind, 5 -brand new- batteries would be $670. No evidence was shown. I stated I'd like to get the original batteries back, as I'd be able to get them replaced under warranty or possibly repaired and recoup some of my money (I was skeptical there was -any- issue, but still, good faith). He agreed. I asked him to send me a message -on eBay- acknowledging that offering a partial refund was contingent on him sending me the batteries back and that he accepts me disputing the refund if not. He does so. Refund is sent (for about $700, to include his return shipping costs). Less than an hour later I get a message, "USPS says they won't ship damaged batteries so I will not be returning them". (Like, 35 minutes. So what, you sat around waiting, and then the moment I sent this money you jumped in your car, got to the post office, had this discussion, got home, and sent me this message?) I then suggest we meet in person to exchange them (I live a few hours away, not convenient, but still, $700...). He umms and ahhs, "How will I be able to prove that I gave them to you in person?". I suggest we do it in a police station (his local PD even welcomes people to use their lobby for CL, etc.). More umms and ahhs. "I need to contact eBay support to see if they recommend this." (eBay literally has a specific FAQ page describing how they recommend doing in person sales, and refunds, documentation thereof, and how they support it). But he ignores that and says, "I never heard back from eBay support so I'm not sure what to do". I point this page out again, and he goes silent. I open a dispute. No evidence provided for damage/faulty goods (I'd asked for even a video of him putting a battery in the drone, to show it wasn't active - or putting one on a charger. Nothing.) Multiple instances of the buyer trying to show something/anything was problematic with the listing. Not abiding by agreement, refusing/avoiding any method of returning damaged items. Overnight, no further inquiries. "We have closed your dispute. Based on our review, the buyer is entitled to a partial refund for damage. He is also not required to return the damaged items". So he ended up with a Mavic 2 Pro, with less than 20 hours flight time, 5 batteries, for in the order of $950, all told. eBay is on the side of least resistance, damage or liability, financial responsibility to eBay, no-one else.
UberFly 4y ago
"I’m blown away that they know a buyer has a habit of doing this, yet continue to let them operate on the platform." I agree it's maddening. The platforms also face the problem of banning someone only to have them open a new shop an hour later as someone new.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >The platforms also face the problem of banning someone only to have them open a new shop an hour later as someone new. I think Ebay lets you screen buyers based on feedback, i.e. refusing bids from 0-feedback accounts. I could be wrong though. But this is one way to avoid this problem.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    It helped for awhile but the obvious methods around it work fine (buy something dirt cheap and get feedback, then scambid later)
  - Ccecil 4y ago
    Funny thing about the feedback. It helps the buyer more than anything. It became meaningless when you stopped being able to leave negative feedback for the customer. [1] I remember having a discussion with customer support about this "You mean you will pull money from a sellers account and potentially cause financial harm based on accusations of a person with a 1 feedback when the seller has thousands of positive?" the answer "we cannot rely on feedback alone sir" I slowly moved away from selling on ebay commercially at that point. Every few years I list a couple items (still have some inventory, or something to sell) only to have someone scam or attempt to scam within weeks. There seems at times the only "gain" the scammer gets is to cause a "loss" to the seller...not sure the end game though. [1] https://pages.ebay.com/services/forum/sellerprotection.html https://pages.ebay.com/services/forum/sellerprotection.html
- nine_k 4y ago
  They can ban you more thoroughly, based on the delivery address, for instance. A determined scammer can just buy a new PO box, of course.
veltas 4y ago
Selling a laptop on eBay, there were two bidders and one cancelled at the last minute after pushing the other way up. Other bidder then refused to pay, claiming they hadn't got their paycheck. I waited the mandatory time and then got on eBay support, they recommended using a setting that essentially banned anyone from bidding on my items who has a pattern of cancelling. Why this isn't the default is beyond me, or why eBay doesn't ban such buyers. The fact is these kinds of actions are abuse of the system: they can remove competitor's listings prematurely or make them unattractive to bid on, without any loss, and keep doing it.
- fsckboy 4y ago
  I can see you being frustrated by your time being wasted in a failed auction, but why should you feel the other guy should pay a bid-up price? I've buy a bunch of stuff on ebay auctions, but when I'm losing an auction and suddenly I'm winning because somebody cancelled, I just nope out of it, qui bono, could be the seller.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    How did auctions handle this before Ebay? I imagine they had various rules for how to handle buyers flaking out. The "bid-up" price reflects an automatic bid that you set in advance: you allowed the system to bid on your behalf, up to a specified amount. The other seller outbid your maximum bid, and then disappeared, but that bid was still your maximum bid. Of course, it seems unfair because if that bad buyer had never bid in the first place, the final price might have been much lower. Honestly, I don't know what should be normal and proper here, which is why I asked the first question. Ebay's auction rules mostly follow pre-existing norms for auctions, but not entirely.
    - veltas 4y ago
      You just don't set a bidding price early, it can only increase the final price you pay. And don't bid unless you're willing to pay.
  - veltas 4y ago
xboxnolifes 4y ago
> I’m blown away that they know a buyer has a habit of doing this, yet continue to let them operate on the platform. Makes me wonder if it's more convenient to have known scammers with known records (unbanned accounts) and just refund sellers since it's a known issue, than to have unknown scammers with less certainty (new accounts) with uncertainty on whether the seller is trying to pull fraud.
rosnd 4y ago
[dead]
nine_k 4y ago
(A former commercial eBay seller here.) First, you can block a buyer from interacting with your store ever again. Second, you can leave a scathing review of the transaction and the buyer; if it's factually correct, eBay won't remove it, no matter how the buyer insists. This eventually lowers the scammer's rating low enough to be a signal to other sellers. Such an account is either left to dust for a year or so, until the bad reviews go out of the rating-calculation window, or is replaced with a new account. This works if you're a seller with some daily volume and selling experience. If you just want to sell a piece of your stuff at a random moment, you're at a higher risk, and are for a bigger downside if scammed. But anyway, eBay's policies are stacked against the seller and heavily in favor of the buyer. I understand why it makes business sense.

AussieWog93 4y ago

Support's right, you'll win the case. If they open a return case, they need to send the item back. Happens all the time to us. >I’m deeply frustrated that eBay is so heavily tilted toward the buyer Their answer to this criticism is that siding with the buyer by default creates trust, which encourages more buyers to use the platform and therefore increases sales volume for their seller. I'm honestly inclined to agree. I'd much rather lose 1% of our revenue each year to fraud and unnecessary returns than 50% through buyer hesitation because they're not sure their items will work or even arrive.

buck4roo 4y ago
Counterfeits, fraud, and theft: Why Silca changed its return policy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32362363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32362363 Good insight into the merchant side of customer return fraud.
midoridensha 4y ago
>Their answer to this criticism is that siding with the buyer by default creates trust, which encourages more buyers to use the platform and therefore increases sales volume for their seller. I'm honestly inclined to agree. I'm not: it depends on the seller. If you're a high-volume seller, then sure: a few bad transactions like this overall is the "price of doing business" because the popularity of the platform means you'll do much more sales volume, which more than makes up for a few shitty buyers. However, if you're a low-volume seller who's just using Ebay to sell your old stuff, with only a very small number of higher-value items sold per year, then even a single bad transaction like this can ruin your profit and make it not worth it to sell on this platform. Personally, I'm much more inclined to sell high-value stuff via Facebook Marketplace, in-person only, because of this possibility. Add in Ebay's high fees and FBM is really attractive, but the problem is you're limited to people in your local area. However, Ebay years ago decided they cared much more about the high-volume sellers than the regular Joes using it as a virtual garage sale venue, so this makes sense for Ebay and increasing their stock price. To be fair though, in my years of using Ebay as a low-volume individual, I haven't had many bad transactions, and have been able to sell off a lot of stuff.
FireBeyond 4y ago
> Support's right, you'll win the case. If they open a return case, they need to send the item back. Happens all the time to us. Haha, this is optimistic. I'm 99% a buyer (hundreds of items bought, and three items sold, and never again). I sold a Mavic 2 Pro drone with 5 batteries. The whole process was a mess. Buyer complained that it didn't come with the CrystalSky tablet in one picture (that was only added after the buyer started bidding was requested BY the buyer, to show Flight Logs, was explicitly disclaimed as being a part of the package, and was not in the receipts I sent the buyer). After pointing out those details, silence. Then, three weeks later: "The batteries don't work." "Any of them?" "Nope. I want a refund." Note that two of the batteries were less than 4 months old, still in warranty. He then stated he wanted a refund of $800. Bear in mind, 5 -brand new- batteries would be $670. No evidence was shown. I stated I'd like to get the original batteries back, as I'd be able to get them replaced under warranty or possibly repaired and recoup some of my money (I was skeptical there was -any- issue, but still, good faith). He agreed. I asked him to send me a message -on eBay- acknowledging that offering a partial refund was contingent on him sending me the batteries back and that he accepts me disputing the refund if not. He does so. Refund is sent (for about $700, to include his return shipping costs). Less than an hour later I get a message, "USPS says they won't ship damaged batteries so I will not be returning them". (Like, 35 minutes. So what, you sat around waiting, and then the moment I sent this money you jumped in your car, got to the post office, had this discussion, got home, and sent me this message?) I then suggest we meet in person to exchange them (I live a few hours away, not convenient, but still, $700...). He umms and ahhs, "How will I be able to prove that I gave them to you in person?". I suggest we do it in a police station (his local PD even welcomes people to use their lobby for CL, etc.). More umms and ahhs. "I need to contact eBay support to see if they recommend this." (eBay literally has a specific FAQ page describing how they recommend doing in person sales, and refunds, documentation thereof, and how they support it). But he ignores that and says, "I never heard back from eBay support so I'm not sure what to do". I point this page out again, and he goes silent. I open a dispute. No evidence provided for damage/faulty goods (I'd asked for even a video of him putting a battery in the drone, to show it wasn't active - or putting one on a charger. Nothing.) Multiple instances of the buyer trying to show something/anything was problematic with the listing. Not abiding by agreement, refusing/avoiding any method of returning damaged items. Overnight, no further inquiries. "We have closed your dispute. Based on our review, the buyer is entitled to a partial refund for damage. He is also not required to return the damaged items". So he ended up with a Mavic 2 Pro, with less than 20 hours flight time, 5 batteries, for in the order of $950, all told. eBay is on the side of least resistance, damage or liability, financial responsibility to eBay, no-one else.

UberFly 4y ago

"I’m blown away that they know a buyer has a habit of doing this, yet continue to let them operate on the platform." I agree it's maddening. The platforms also face the problem of banning someone only to have them open a new shop an hour later as someone new.

midoridensha 4y ago
>The platforms also face the problem of banning someone only to have them open a new shop an hour later as someone new. I think Ebay lets you screen buyers based on feedback, i.e. refusing bids from 0-feedback accounts. I could be wrong though. But this is one way to avoid this problem.
- bombcar 4y ago
  It helped for awhile but the obvious methods around it work fine (buy something dirt cheap and get feedback, then scambid later)
- Ccecil 4y ago
  Funny thing about the feedback. It helps the buyer more than anything. It became meaningless when you stopped being able to leave negative feedback for the customer. [1] I remember having a discussion with customer support about this "You mean you will pull money from a sellers account and potentially cause financial harm based on accusations of a person with a 1 feedback when the seller has thousands of positive?" the answer "we cannot rely on feedback alone sir" I slowly moved away from selling on ebay commercially at that point. Every few years I list a couple items (still have some inventory, or something to sell) only to have someone scam or attempt to scam within weeks. There seems at times the only "gain" the scammer gets is to cause a "loss" to the seller...not sure the end game though. [1] https://pages.ebay.com/services/forum/sellerprotection.html https://pages.ebay.com/services/forum/sellerprotection.html
nine_k 4y ago
They can ban you more thoroughly, based on the delivery address, for instance. A determined scammer can just buy a new PO box, of course.

veltas 4y ago

Selling a laptop on eBay, there were two bidders and one cancelled at the last minute after pushing the other way up. Other bidder then refused to pay, claiming they hadn't got their paycheck. I waited the mandatory time and then got on eBay support, they recommended using a setting that essentially banned anyone from bidding on my items who has a pattern of cancelling. Why this isn't the default is beyond me, or why eBay doesn't ban such buyers. The fact is these kinds of actions are abuse of the system: they can remove competitor's listings prematurely or make them unattractive to bid on, without any loss, and keep doing it.

fsckboy 4y ago
I can see you being frustrated by your time being wasted in a failed auction, but why should you feel the other guy should pay a bid-up price? I've buy a bunch of stuff on ebay auctions, but when I'm losing an auction and suddenly I'm winning because somebody cancelled, I just nope out of it, qui bono, could be the seller.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  How did auctions handle this before Ebay? I imagine they had various rules for how to handle buyers flaking out. The "bid-up" price reflects an automatic bid that you set in advance: you allowed the system to bid on your behalf, up to a specified amount. The other seller outbid your maximum bid, and then disappeared, but that bid was still your maximum bid. Of course, it seems unfair because if that bad buyer had never bid in the first place, the final price might have been much lower. Honestly, I don't know what should be normal and proper here, which is why I asked the first question. Ebay's auction rules mostly follow pre-existing norms for auctions, but not entirely.
  - veltas 4y ago
    You just don't set a bidding price early, it can only increase the final price you pay. And don't bid unless you're willing to pay.
- veltas 4y ago

xboxnolifes 4y ago

> I’m blown away that they know a buyer has a habit of doing this, yet continue to let them operate on the platform. Makes me wonder if it's more convenient to have known scammers with known records (unbanned accounts) and just refund sellers since it's a known issue, than to have unknown scammers with less certainty (new accounts) with uncertainty on whether the seller is trying to pull fraud.

rosnd 4y ago

[dead]

nine_k 4y ago

(A former commercial eBay seller here.) First, you can block a buyer from interacting with your store ever again. Second, you can leave a scathing review of the transaction and the buyer; if it's factually correct, eBay won't remove it, no matter how the buyer insists. This eventually lowers the scammer's rating low enough to be a signal to other sellers. Such an account is either left to dust for a year or so, until the bad reviews go out of the rating-calculation window, or is replaced with a new account. This works if you're a seller with some daily volume and selling experience. If you just want to sell a piece of your stuff at a random moment, you're at a higher risk, and are for a bigger downside if scammed. But anyway, eBay's policies are stacked against the seller and heavily in favor of the buyer. I understand why it makes business sense.