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> The freedom isn't even universally supported on the left It could be argued from a "leftist" position (whatever that means nowadays) that: it's mostly worki

> The freedom isn't even universally supported on the left It could be argued from a "leftist" position (whatever that means nowadays) that: it's mostly working class people that need to compete with immigrants. If the immigrants are undocumented or very poor, they are more likely to tolerate lower wages and unsafe working conditions, meaning that I (if I was a working class American) would have less negotiating power when it comes to my wages and work conditions, as there are plenty of people who would be happy to replace me. Also, working class people are more likely to meet with the immigrants that are engaged in illegal activities, whereas if you are middle-upper class or rich, you'll meet the educated, immigrants that maybe help your business growing or at the very least help you keep your household running. I'm just trying to show a different "leftist" take, I don't really have a strong opinion on this issue as I believe there are good people on both sides and figuring out the best approach is basically impossible.

rascul 4y ago
> It could be argued from a "leftist" position (whatever that means nowadays) that: it's mostly working class people that need to compete with immigrants. If the immigrants are undocumented or very poor, they are more likely to tolerate lower wages and unsafe working conditions, meaning that I (if I was a working class American) would have less negotiating power when it comes to my wages and work conditions, as there are plenty of people who would be happy to replace me. That sounds very similar to the "they're stealing our jobs" argument I hear sometimes from people on the right.
- adalacelove 4y ago
  And on a lot of countries the right has gained support within the working class
- serial_dev 4y ago
  It might feel like a cosmetic nitpicking, but if I say they are "stealing our jobs", I'm blaming and vilifying the immigrants without wanting to understand their reasons for coming here and the unfortunate situation they are in. On the other hand, my ability to negotiate with the powerful owner class is strongly reduced if there are people that are willing to be exploited or simply don't have another choice due to their immigration status and poverty. It could be argued that more people coming in results in bad working conditions for both the immigrants and the working class, whereas the rich can take advantage of the situation and amass a fortune on the misfortune of the poor (both native and alien). Bernie Sanders, once a prominent leftie, said in one of his honest moments that the open borders is a "Koch brothers proposal".
  - alisonatwork 4y ago
    From my perspective any self-proclaimed leftist who is against freedom of movement is essentially a crypto-fascist. The working class aren't really taking back the means of the production if that so-called working class is a privileged group drawn along nationalist or racist lines that explicitly exclude the workers of the world. The way I see it, freedom of movement is pretty much the most fundamental freedom that exists in organic beings. We eat, we grow, we migrate. All the other freedoms are built on that one. If people aren't free to change their living conditions by moving somewhere that provides better opportunities, then they're not really free at all.
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    I love Bernie but he was also running for president of the United States and this forced him to have a somewhat centrist position from a global perspective. He only seems lefty to us because he genuinely cares about labor, health care, and free education. But in many places this platform is not particularly leftist.
sasattack 4y ago
This would be called national chauvinism and has multiple times created major splits of the labor movement in the past. Can't really be a leftist and support border controls. Elon and Jeff Have more than enough money for everybody . Plus if America and about a dozen other countries stop interfering, destroying through military action, and otherwise preventing the overwhelming majority of nations from independent development of industry then there will not be much of an inflow to this country.

rascul 4y ago

> It could be argued from a "leftist" position (whatever that means nowadays) that: it's mostly working class people that need to compete with immigrants. If the immigrants are undocumented or very poor, they are more likely to tolerate lower wages and unsafe working conditions, meaning that I (if I was a working class American) would have less negotiating power when it comes to my wages and work conditions, as there are plenty of people who would be happy to replace me. That sounds very similar to the "they're stealing our jobs" argument I hear sometimes from people on the right.

adalacelove 4y ago
And on a lot of countries the right has gained support within the working class
serial_dev 4y ago
It might feel like a cosmetic nitpicking, but if I say they are "stealing our jobs", I'm blaming and vilifying the immigrants without wanting to understand their reasons for coming here and the unfortunate situation they are in. On the other hand, my ability to negotiate with the powerful owner class is strongly reduced if there are people that are willing to be exploited or simply don't have another choice due to their immigration status and poverty. It could be argued that more people coming in results in bad working conditions for both the immigrants and the working class, whereas the rich can take advantage of the situation and amass a fortune on the misfortune of the poor (both native and alien). Bernie Sanders, once a prominent leftie, said in one of his honest moments that the open borders is a "Koch brothers proposal".
- alisonatwork 4y ago
  From my perspective any self-proclaimed leftist who is against freedom of movement is essentially a crypto-fascist. The working class aren't really taking back the means of the production if that so-called working class is a privileged group drawn along nationalist or racist lines that explicitly exclude the workers of the world. The way I see it, freedom of movement is pretty much the most fundamental freedom that exists in organic beings. We eat, we grow, we migrate. All the other freedoms are built on that one. If people aren't free to change their living conditions by moving somewhere that provides better opportunities, then they're not really free at all.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  I love Bernie but he was also running for president of the United States and this forced him to have a somewhat centrist position from a global perspective. He only seems lefty to us because he genuinely cares about labor, health care, and free education. But in many places this platform is not particularly leftist.

sasattack 4y ago

This would be called national chauvinism and has multiple times created major splits of the labor movement in the past. Can't really be a leftist and support border controls. Elon and Jeff Have more than enough money for everybody . Plus if America and about a dozen other countries stop interfering, destroying through military action, and otherwise preventing the overwhelming majority of nations from independent development of industry then there will not be much of an inflow to this country.