4 ms·

one piece that is omitted from this is how the border is enforced. From the looks of it, unless you’re looking at becoming employed here they don’t really check

one piece that is omitted from this is how the border is enforced. From the looks of it, unless you’re looking at becoming employed here they don’t really check your citizenship. That’s a win in my book. Reminds me that when I was a kid you could travel to / from Canada without a passport (only nation with that privilege if I recall correctly) and now you can’t. I recall no real good reasoning for it other than the DOH wanted to close the loop hole, without any real evidence it was a cause of issues

morelisp 4y ago
Not only Canada; also Bermuda and fewer restrictions for Mexico. All gone now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Travel_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Travel_Init...
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  The page you linked mentions several non-passport alternatives. Yes, the requirements are stricter in that you have to prove citizenship in some way but there are multiple ways to do that which are WHTI-compliant.
  - morelisp 4y ago
    You mean all the things just as hard to get as a passport, some invented specifically to be used for this new program? Sure, I guess you could get one of those instead. But there's no reason to get one of them rather than a passport except as a fig leaf for people to say a passport "isn't mandatory". Or, and bear with me for a second, we could have kept freedoms we had on September 10th, 2001.
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      It’s far easier to get an EDL than to get a passport, what are you talking about? We never had Schengen. Almost every other country has similar entry requirements, why should the US and Canada be any different? They’re not in a far-reaching political alliance, there’s no incentive to have open borders or provide exceptions to rules. 9/11 changed things. It’s absurd to expect things to always be the same and just because it was open before doesn’t mean that was ever intended or expected to be permanent.
      - schoen 4y ago
        > It’s absurd to expect things to always be the same and just because it was open before doesn’t mean that was ever intended or expected to be permanent. On the flip side, there's also an interpretation under which passports (and possibly visas) were not intended or expected to be permanent: https://fee.org/articles/passports-were-a-temporary-war-measure/ https://fee.org/articles/passports-were-a-temporary-war-meas... This article quotes various delegates to international conventions apparently taking for granted that it would be desirable to return to a pre-WWI default of people not usually needing travel documents or being subject to border formalities¹. (I've seen this article several times, but haven't seen if there's a contrary interpretation under which the diplomats or politicians did not, in fact, have the intuition or consensus that it describes. Obviously improvements in transportation technology mean that there are orders of magnitude more international trips than there were in the pre-WWI era, so one could imagine that most migration -- and tourism -- was seen as a relatively marginal activity in the past and that it no longer looks that way when so many more people can afford to do it.) ¹ not quite sure how to reconcile this with inspections of migrants around the turn of the 20th century, even if those were more focused on public health and stuff
        TMWNN 4y ago
        >not quite sure how to reconcile this with inspections of migrants around the turn of the 20th century, even if those were more focused on public health and stuff More than public health. Every single migrant who came through Ellis Island and other US border stations had to * Pass said public health examinations * Prove, to the satisfaction of inspectors, of disaffiliation with a variety of subversive organizations/ideologies (Communism and polygamy being two prominent examples) * Provide proof of financial support in the US, whether by oneself or from a US financial sponsor Don't pass any of these tests? You're on the next ship out of the US. Shipping companies were responsible for return passage (just as airlines are responsible for paying the way of those who do not pass US border entry today), so had incentive to make sure that their passengers would pass scrutiny. I am a migrant to the US. I am very much in favor of restoring and enforcing such rules today.
        4y ago
    - ShroudedNight 4y ago
      NEXUS is genuinely faster than a passport
      - mgbmtl 4y ago
        The paperwork isn't, alas.
jupp0r 4y ago
This is completely normal inside the EU. You barely notice you're in another country sometimes.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  It's gone the opposite way between US and Canada since 9/11. Used to be able to cross the border with just a driver's license. Now you need a passport and the border agents are often incredibly hostile. As a result I make a habit of not going to the Hostile States of Overarmed Americans despite it being only an hour away. The people are super nice, the government... not so much.
  - mise_en_place 4y ago
    If it makes you feel any better, the government isn’t very nice to its own citizens either.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    >Now you need a passport and the border agents are often incredibly hostile. Are the Canadian agents hostile as well, or only the American ones? >The people are super nice, the government... not so much. The Americans that tend to go into law enforcement jobs are not super nice people, quite the opposite really. It's really eye-opening going to other countries outside the US and interacting with cops and other law enforcement agents (including airport security and customs agents) and seeing just how differently you're treated. Even as a US citizen, entering the US is not a fun experience at all.
    - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
      The Canadian agents are comically friendly, but that's because I'm coming back into my own country, where I'm a citizen, and, y'know, they have to let me in. Cuz it's my country. I hear from Americans that they're often not very nice, but it sounds not nearly as terrible as "please stand in this room for an hour AND DON'T TOUCH YOUR PHONE while we tear your car apart for no reason because, I dunno... a hunch or something... oh, all's fine have a nice day bye enjoy your tourist trip to the USA"
kejaed 4y ago
You still can as a kid via land, but a birth certificate is required. The parents do need passports though…
foolfoolz 4y ago
you used to be able to walk from california to mexico through a one-way metal turnstile gate
adriand 4y ago
> Reminds me that when I was a kid you could travel to / from Canada without a passport I assume you mean the era of your childhood, but, Canadian and American children can go back and forth between the US and Canada without passports, provided it’s a land crossing. So to be pedantic, as a kid you can still travel to/from Canada without a passport.
- nhooyr 4y ago
  You still need your birth certificate or citizenship card. https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-1280?language=en_US https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-1280?language=en_US
mattm 4y ago
> I recall no real good reasoning for it other than the DOH wanted to close the loop hole, without any real evidence it was a cause of issues After 9/11 there were (false) rumours (spread by US Congressmen IIRC) that some terrorists entered the US via Canada. Even though that was shown to be false the stigma remained and I think it was a big part of the reason for the changes. There were a lot of people in border towns affected. Before 9/11 some people crossed daily for work and knew all the border agents. They would just drive through with a wave but that all changed.
- pnw 4y ago
  The Millennium bomber was cited as one of the reasons. This was pre 9/11. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Ressam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Ressam

morelisp 4y ago

Not only Canada; also Bermuda and fewer restrictions for Mexico. All gone now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Travel_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Travel_Init...

mynameisvlad 4y ago
The page you linked mentions several non-passport alternatives. Yes, the requirements are stricter in that you have to prove citizenship in some way but there are multiple ways to do that which are WHTI-compliant.
- morelisp 4y ago
  You mean all the things just as hard to get as a passport, some invented specifically to be used for this new program? Sure, I guess you could get one of those instead. But there's no reason to get one of them rather than a passport except as a fig leaf for people to say a passport "isn't mandatory". Or, and bear with me for a second, we could have kept freedoms we had on September 10th, 2001.
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    It’s far easier to get an EDL than to get a passport, what are you talking about? We never had Schengen. Almost every other country has similar entry requirements, why should the US and Canada be any different? They’re not in a far-reaching political alliance, there’s no incentive to have open borders or provide exceptions to rules. 9/11 changed things. It’s absurd to expect things to always be the same and just because it was open before doesn’t mean that was ever intended or expected to be permanent.
    - schoen 4y ago
      > It’s absurd to expect things to always be the same and just because it was open before doesn’t mean that was ever intended or expected to be permanent. On the flip side, there's also an interpretation under which passports (and possibly visas) were not intended or expected to be permanent: https://fee.org/articles/passports-were-a-temporary-war-measure/ https://fee.org/articles/passports-were-a-temporary-war-meas... This article quotes various delegates to international conventions apparently taking for granted that it would be desirable to return to a pre-WWI default of people not usually needing travel documents or being subject to border formalities¹. (I've seen this article several times, but haven't seen if there's a contrary interpretation under which the diplomats or politicians did not, in fact, have the intuition or consensus that it describes. Obviously improvements in transportation technology mean that there are orders of magnitude more international trips than there were in the pre-WWI era, so one could imagine that most migration -- and tourism -- was seen as a relatively marginal activity in the past and that it no longer looks that way when so many more people can afford to do it.) ¹ not quite sure how to reconcile this with inspections of migrants around the turn of the 20th century, even if those were more focused on public health and stuff
      - TMWNN 4y ago
        >not quite sure how to reconcile this with inspections of migrants around the turn of the 20th century, even if those were more focused on public health and stuff More than public health. Every single migrant who came through Ellis Island and other US border stations had to * Pass said public health examinations * Prove, to the satisfaction of inspectors, of disaffiliation with a variety of subversive organizations/ideologies (Communism and polygamy being two prominent examples) * Provide proof of financial support in the US, whether by oneself or from a US financial sponsor Don't pass any of these tests? You're on the next ship out of the US. Shipping companies were responsible for return passage (just as airlines are responsible for paying the way of those who do not pass US border entry today), so had incentive to make sure that their passengers would pass scrutiny. I am a migrant to the US. I am very much in favor of restoring and enforcing such rules today.
        4y ago
  - ShroudedNight 4y ago
    NEXUS is genuinely faster than a passport
    - mgbmtl 4y ago
      The paperwork isn't, alas.

jupp0r 4y ago

This is completely normal inside the EU. You barely notice you're in another country sometimes.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago
It's gone the opposite way between US and Canada since 9/11. Used to be able to cross the border with just a driver's license. Now you need a passport and the border agents are often incredibly hostile. As a result I make a habit of not going to the Hostile States of Overarmed Americans despite it being only an hour away. The people are super nice, the government... not so much.
- mise_en_place 4y ago
  If it makes you feel any better, the government isn’t very nice to its own citizens either.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >Now you need a passport and the border agents are often incredibly hostile. Are the Canadian agents hostile as well, or only the American ones? >The people are super nice, the government... not so much. The Americans that tend to go into law enforcement jobs are not super nice people, quite the opposite really. It's really eye-opening going to other countries outside the US and interacting with cops and other law enforcement agents (including airport security and customs agents) and seeing just how differently you're treated. Even as a US citizen, entering the US is not a fun experience at all.
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    The Canadian agents are comically friendly, but that's because I'm coming back into my own country, where I'm a citizen, and, y'know, they have to let me in. Cuz it's my country. I hear from Americans that they're often not very nice, but it sounds not nearly as terrible as "please stand in this room for an hour AND DON'T TOUCH YOUR PHONE while we tear your car apart for no reason because, I dunno... a hunch or something... oh, all's fine have a nice day bye enjoy your tourist trip to the USA"

kejaed 4y ago

You still can as a kid via land, but a birth certificate is required. The parents do need passports though…

foolfoolz 4y ago

you used to be able to walk from california to mexico through a one-way metal turnstile gate

adriand 4y ago

> Reminds me that when I was a kid you could travel to / from Canada without a passport I assume you mean the era of your childhood, but, Canadian and American children can go back and forth between the US and Canada without passports, provided it’s a land crossing. So to be pedantic, as a kid you can still travel to/from Canada without a passport.

nhooyr 4y ago
You still need your birth certificate or citizenship card. https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-1280?language=en_US https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-1280?language=en_US

mattm 4y ago

> I recall no real good reasoning for it other than the DOH wanted to close the loop hole, without any real evidence it was a cause of issues After 9/11 there were (false) rumours (spread by US Congressmen IIRC) that some terrorists entered the US via Canada. Even though that was shown to be false the stigma remained and I think it was a big part of the reason for the changes. There were a lot of people in border towns affected. Before 9/11 some people crossed daily for work and knew all the border agents. They would just drive through with a wave but that all changed.

pnw 4y ago
The Millennium bomber was cited as one of the reasons. This was pre 9/11. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Ressam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Ressam