5 ms·

> It lets me be a bit more objective in a field that's prone to a lot of subjectivity and - like almost any field - pride and ego Unpopular opinion: pride and

by dvt 4y ago

> It lets me be a bit more objective in a field that's prone to a lot of subjectivity and - like almost any field - pride and ego Unpopular opinion: pride and ego actually drive personal ambition, technological achievements, and human progress. No one accidentally stumbles over being "passionate" and no one truly passionate divorces their personal identity from their work. That's why some of the most successful people in their respective fields also are often the most egotistical. There should obviously be some checks and balances there that everyone needs to take stock of, but that's just my two cents.

scarface74 4y ago
That begs the question, why do I want to be the most successful person in my field? Software development is a means to exchange labor for money and to support my addiction to food and shelter. The list of things I’m more passionate about than software development is a mile long. I haven’t written a single line of code that wasn’t in direct service to exchanging my time for money since 1996. I was “passionate” from the time I was 12 until I graduated from college.
- catach 4y ago
  Specialization of passion. Nobody can or should be passionate about all the things. But we can be thankful for those who are passionate about the domains where we are not, since we collectively benefit from those domains being loved and nurtured. At least in many cases.
- dvt 4y ago
  > That begs the question, why do I want to be the most successful person in my field? I'm not sure how this begs any question. Some baristas work at coffee shops to make ends meet; others want to be the best at what they do and compete in barista competitions, learn to roast, maybe eventually start their own coffee shops, etc. Why some do the former while others do the latter is just a question of priorities, dreams, desires, and so on.
- waboremo 4y ago
  There's another layer to this, people who work for a simple exchange of money (and the important part is we're talking people making more than the average in the field, not somebody at mcdonalds) are prone to going along with decisions even if they negatively affect the community. To be passionate is to care about your work and the only way you can produce high quality sustainable work is to care. But most jobs aren't creating products/services worth caring about (or worse, harming/exploiting people) is the catch. See: the average Meta employee vs passionate successful figures like Carmack or Sweeney who can aggressively push back on ideas they feel are negative for the community. Although the comparison I bring up is a little funny since Carmack did work at Meta... So I think there is value in wanting to be a passionate successful figure beyond just personal gain. The question that should be asked is why we cannot have a society that has enough of a safety net for everyone so that they can work on what they care about? If that were to happen, what would you actually be working on? These questions are the reason why a lot of people wind up leaving software once they've accumulated enough of a financial safety net.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    You mean the same Sweeney who makes millions selling loot boxes to whales and in app purchases for pay to win games? You notice he didn’t go after console makers who have the same policies as the mobile app stores because he knew where his money came from.
  - deadbunny 4y ago
    As you say Carmack worked at Meta who ignored every promise they made when it relates to Occulus, not sure where he pushed back but it seems Meta doesn't care so he left, which is the same as any of us can do. As for Sweeney he doesn't care about the community, he cares about his bottom line. He may have some goals that overlap with "good for the community" (see challenging apple app store) but he also has goals that are community hostile (see Epic buying exclusives for its own store). Both of which are driven by the bottom line, not a care for the community. Money made by extracting money from literall children with dark pattern and skinner boxes.
    - 4y ago
thejackgoode 4y ago
You are right, but you're missing the flipside of this: they also drive mental illness. Adaptations like these can be constructive or destructive to a person and society, and it's current consensus (which may be wrong), that it's better to have less of an ego in average case.
- euthymiclabs 4y ago
  Maybe so, but I'm struggling to think of any trait that wouldn't moderate mental illness when manifest in its extreme.
mykowebhn 4y ago
> Unpopular opinion: pride and ego actually drive personal ambition, technological achievements, and human progress. Yes, for the 0.0001 percent of us that actually do something monumental and worthwhile. For the rest of us who are working in a glorified ad agency, it's just pride and ego if we think otherwise. --Realistic cynic
- dvt 4y ago
  Counterargument: if you had any pride at all, you would quit working for a glorified ad agency.
  - tmtvl 4y ago
    True pride is being homeless? Or do you think that anyone can just go to a company, ask for a job, and be given one?
- chitowneats 4y ago
  99.9999% of software engineers do not work at glorified ad agencies. That's you, projecting on everyone else.
  - 98codes 4y ago
    You including Google in that calculation?
    - chitowneats 4y ago
      Google is a glorified ad agency.
  - borski 4y ago
    Citation needed. I do not believe this is true for a second. It is definitely possible that a majority don’t, but my guess would be closer to 60-70% that do. Of course, I also don’t have a source for that, but it is by no means a remotely obvious spread.
loandbehold 4y ago
It wasn't my experience at all. The best software developers I've met were the nicest guys ever, no ego at all. The ones with big ego typically think very highly of themselves but are in fact mediocre developers. And their high ego often prevents them from working productively in a team resulting in negative value contribution.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
  Best =/= most successful
  - thesnide 4y ago
    I didn't know that one. I only knew != and <>...
    - xanathar 4y ago
      Since I love both nitpicking and off-topics, let me digress telling you that Lua uses ~= .
      - nikau 4y ago
        That's like a fuzzy match or regex match in things like gcp log search
    - puffybuf 4y ago
      Yea I don’t get why people don’t just use != which is used in most programming languages…
      - MonkeyClub 4y ago
        Can’t ever be completely sure, but perhaps it’s fashionable nonconformism, I’ve seen it quite frequently lately, including the insane variant =|=
- nickff 4y ago

by dvt 4y ago

scarface74 4y ago

That begs the question, why do I want to be the most successful person in my field? Software development is a means to exchange labor for money and to support my addiction to food and shelter. The list of things I’m more passionate about than software development is a mile long. I haven’t written a single line of code that wasn’t in direct service to exchanging my time for money since 1996. I was “passionate” from the time I was 12 until I graduated from college.

catach 4y ago
Specialization of passion. Nobody can or should be passionate about all the things. But we can be thankful for those who are passionate about the domains where we are not, since we collectively benefit from those domains being loved and nurtured. At least in many cases.
dvt 4y ago
> That begs the question, why do I want to be the most successful person in my field? I'm not sure how this begs any question. Some baristas work at coffee shops to make ends meet; others want to be the best at what they do and compete in barista competitions, learn to roast, maybe eventually start their own coffee shops, etc. Why some do the former while others do the latter is just a question of priorities, dreams, desires, and so on.
waboremo 4y ago
There's another layer to this, people who work for a simple exchange of money (and the important part is we're talking people making more than the average in the field, not somebody at mcdonalds) are prone to going along with decisions even if they negatively affect the community. To be passionate is to care about your work and the only way you can produce high quality sustainable work is to care. But most jobs aren't creating products/services worth caring about (or worse, harming/exploiting people) is the catch. See: the average Meta employee vs passionate successful figures like Carmack or Sweeney who can aggressively push back on ideas they feel are negative for the community. Although the comparison I bring up is a little funny since Carmack did work at Meta... So I think there is value in wanting to be a passionate successful figure beyond just personal gain. The question that should be asked is why we cannot have a society that has enough of a safety net for everyone so that they can work on what they care about? If that were to happen, what would you actually be working on? These questions are the reason why a lot of people wind up leaving software once they've accumulated enough of a financial safety net.
- scarface74 4y ago
  You mean the same Sweeney who makes millions selling loot boxes to whales and in app purchases for pay to win games? You notice he didn’t go after console makers who have the same policies as the mobile app stores because he knew where his money came from.
- deadbunny 4y ago
  As you say Carmack worked at Meta who ignored every promise they made when it relates to Occulus, not sure where he pushed back but it seems Meta doesn't care so he left, which is the same as any of us can do. As for Sweeney he doesn't care about the community, he cares about his bottom line. He may have some goals that overlap with "good for the community" (see challenging apple app store) but he also has goals that are community hostile (see Epic buying exclusives for its own store). Both of which are driven by the bottom line, not a care for the community. Money made by extracting money from literall children with dark pattern and skinner boxes.
  - 4y ago

thejackgoode 4y ago

You are right, but you're missing the flipside of this: they also drive mental illness. Adaptations like these can be constructive or destructive to a person and society, and it's current consensus (which may be wrong), that it's better to have less of an ego in average case.

euthymiclabs 4y ago
Maybe so, but I'm struggling to think of any trait that wouldn't moderate mental illness when manifest in its extreme.

mykowebhn 4y ago

> Unpopular opinion: pride and ego actually drive personal ambition, technological achievements, and human progress. Yes, for the 0.0001 percent of us that actually do something monumental and worthwhile. For the rest of us who are working in a glorified ad agency, it's just pride and ego if we think otherwise. --Realistic cynic

dvt 4y ago
Counterargument: if you had any pride at all, you would quit working for a glorified ad agency.
- tmtvl 4y ago
  True pride is being homeless? Or do you think that anyone can just go to a company, ask for a job, and be given one?
chitowneats 4y ago
99.9999% of software engineers do not work at glorified ad agencies. That's you, projecting on everyone else.
- 98codes 4y ago
  You including Google in that calculation?
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    Google is a glorified ad agency.
- borski 4y ago
  Citation needed. I do not believe this is true for a second. It is definitely possible that a majority don’t, but my guess would be closer to 60-70% that do. Of course, I also don’t have a source for that, but it is by no means a remotely obvious spread.

loandbehold 4y ago

It wasn't my experience at all. The best software developers I've met were the nicest guys ever, no ego at all. The ones with big ego typically think very highly of themselves but are in fact mediocre developers. And their high ego often prevents them from working productively in a team resulting in negative value contribution.

bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
Best =/= most successful
- thesnide 4y ago
  I didn't know that one. I only knew != and <>...
  - xanathar 4y ago
    Since I love both nitpicking and off-topics, let me digress telling you that Lua uses ~= .
    - nikau 4y ago
      That's like a fuzzy match or regex match in things like gcp log search
  - puffybuf 4y ago
    Yea I don’t get why people don’t just use != which is used in most programming languages…
    - MonkeyClub 4y ago
      Can’t ever be completely sure, but perhaps it’s fashionable nonconformism, I’ve seen it quite frequently lately, including the insane variant =|=
nickff 4y ago