4 ms·

Wow, I had no idea that much hashrate was in the US now. A much better situation than when it was in China, IMO.

by modeless 4y ago

Jensson 4y ago
Not good for Americans though since their electricity gets more expensive.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- walkhour 4y ago
  Sure but we need numbers, how much more expensive is it, is it 1%, 10% or 100%. Because just saying "more" is compatible with the energy being 0.000001% more expensive. So your comment in not really saying anything.
  - ajkjk 4y ago
    Defensive much? It's more, and probably by more than 10^-9, and the point is allowed to be posted even if it doesn't include exact numbers.
    - fabianfabian 4y ago
      Numbers please, because it seems you haven't considered the possibility of it being cheaper. The practice known as curtailment, is a way for miners to help electricity grids. The miners' steady demand ensures power producers are bringing in revenue to offset costs, but can power off when demand from other sources is high, such as during winter storms.
      - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
        Proof works both ways. Show me empirical evidence what you described is actually happening on a large scale.
        sdenton4 4y ago
        I could believe that the energy saved in curtailment could power all of the remittances which Bitcoin so helpfully enables.
- latchkey 4y ago
  It depends. The inexpensive power is usually taken up by data centers and is located in areas where the power would be too expensive to send to other locations. For example, Quincy, WA and Massena, NY.
- throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
  I really doubt bitcoin mining farms use power from the grid, that's simply not viable. they can only operate with near zero electricity prices.
  - ineedasername 4y ago
    Your doubt on viability is misplaced. A variety of ASIC miners are profitable with kwh prices are high are $0.12/kwh. The average electricity price in the US is less then this, with as low as about $0.08 in some locations. [1] Small/medium mining operators just build in those cheapest locations. The largest operations are turning towards purchasing or building their own capacity, some of which activity will still contribute to a supply/demand curve that raises prices for the entire country (or at least region). In some cases large mining companies have even recommissions old coal power plants, e.g., Marathon Digital Holdings w/ the Harding plant.
- JCharante 4y ago
  Not if it's priced appropriately. Some countries have different prices for residential areas vs businesses vs industry. For residential areas they might do something like first 10 kWh = $0.01/kWh, next 20 kWh = $0.02/kWh, etc. This punishes people who use excessive amounts and helps keep electricity affordable for people living in poverty. It's the US's fault for not implementing something like that (and I'm one of the people living in it).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
latchkey 4y ago
It is a misnomer that it matters where the hashrate is on the planet. What matters is the amount of control any single entity has. Even in China, it was individuals setting up mining rigs, not some giant government conspiracy to control all the hashrate.
- wmf 4y ago
  The argument was that the government could have controlled the miners if they wanted to. They never exercised that power (except to eventually ban mining) but it was there.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    Exactly, it is more efficient to just ban it. Even in China, I don't think they can just declare eminent domain over someone's business, but they can certainly control who gets power generated for them. On top of it, if you've ever run a large scale mining operation (and I've run several), it isn't easy. There is a lot of competence required to do it profitably.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > in China, I don't think they can just declare eminent domain over someone's business Beijing can absolutely just seize a business. Disappearing leadership [1], installing Party Board members [2], promoting Party management members (a requirement for any business of consequence [3]) and simply taking assets are commonplace in China. Eminent domain doesn’t really exist because the legal system is subservient to the Party [4]. If the CCP wants something, it takes it; it doesn’t need court permission. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/2f7c7a10-2df3-4f1b-8d2a-eea0e0548713 https://www.ft.com/content/2f7c7a10-2df3-4f1b-8d2a-eea0e0548... [2] https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-the-role-of-chinese-communist-party-committees/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-th... [3] https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business-xi-jinping-communist-party-state-private-enterprise-huawei https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business... [4] https://www.hrw.org/report/2008/04/28/walking-thin-ice/control-intimidation-and-harassment-lawyers-china https://www.hrw.org/report/2008/04/28/walking-thin-ice/contr...
anaganisk 4y ago
Of course, it is much better than one country known as meddling with other govts compared to another country that meddles with other governments.

Wow, I had no idea that much hashrate was in the US now. A much better situation than when it was in China, IMO.

Jensson 4y ago

Not good for Americans though since their electricity gets more expensive.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
walkhour 4y ago
Sure but we need numbers, how much more expensive is it, is it 1%, 10% or 100%. Because just saying "more" is compatible with the energy being 0.000001% more expensive. So your comment in not really saying anything.
- ajkjk 4y ago
  Defensive much? It's more, and probably by more than 10^-9, and the point is allowed to be posted even if it doesn't include exact numbers.
  - fabianfabian 4y ago
    Numbers please, because it seems you haven't considered the possibility of it being cheaper. The practice known as curtailment, is a way for miners to help electricity grids. The miners' steady demand ensures power producers are bringing in revenue to offset costs, but can power off when demand from other sources is high, such as during winter storms.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      Proof works both ways. Show me empirical evidence what you described is actually happening on a large scale.
      - sdenton4 4y ago
        I could believe that the energy saved in curtailment could power all of the remittances which Bitcoin so helpfully enables.
latchkey 4y ago
It depends. The inexpensive power is usually taken up by data centers and is located in areas where the power would be too expensive to send to other locations. For example, Quincy, WA and Massena, NY.
throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
I really doubt bitcoin mining farms use power from the grid, that's simply not viable. they can only operate with near zero electricity prices.
- ineedasername 4y ago
  Your doubt on viability is misplaced. A variety of ASIC miners are profitable with kwh prices are high are $0.12/kwh. The average electricity price in the US is less then this, with as low as about $0.08 in some locations. [1] Small/medium mining operators just build in those cheapest locations. The largest operations are turning towards purchasing or building their own capacity, some of which activity will still contribute to a supply/demand curve that raises prices for the entire country (or at least region). In some cases large mining companies have even recommissions old coal power plants, e.g., Marathon Digital Holdings w/ the Harding plant.
JCharante 4y ago
Not if it's priced appropriately. Some countries have different prices for residential areas vs businesses vs industry. For residential areas they might do something like first 10 kWh = $0.01/kWh, next 20 kWh = $0.02/kWh, etc. This punishes people who use excessive amounts and helps keep electricity affordable for people living in poverty. It's the US's fault for not implementing something like that (and I'm one of the people living in it).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

latchkey 4y ago

It is a misnomer that it matters where the hashrate is on the planet. What matters is the amount of control any single entity has. Even in China, it was individuals setting up mining rigs, not some giant government conspiracy to control all the hashrate.

wmf 4y ago
The argument was that the government could have controlled the miners if they wanted to. They never exercised that power (except to eventually ban mining) but it was there.
- latchkey 4y ago
  Exactly, it is more efficient to just ban it. Even in China, I don't think they can just declare eminent domain over someone's business, but they can certainly control who gets power generated for them. On top of it, if you've ever run a large scale mining operation (and I've run several), it isn't easy. There is a lot of competence required to do it profitably.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > in China, I don't think they can just declare eminent domain over someone's business Beijing can absolutely just seize a business. Disappearing leadership [1], installing Party Board members [2], promoting Party management members (a requirement for any business of consequence [3]) and simply taking assets are commonplace in China. Eminent domain doesn’t really exist because the legal system is subservient to the Party [4]. If the CCP wants something, it takes it; it doesn’t need court permission. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/2f7c7a10-2df3-4f1b-8d2a-eea0e0548713 https://www.ft.com/content/2f7c7a10-2df3-4f1b-8d2a-eea0e0548... [2] https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-the-role-of-chinese-communist-party-committees/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-th... [3] https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business-xi-jinping-communist-party-state-private-enterprise-huawei https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business... [4] https://www.hrw.org/report/2008/04/28/walking-thin-ice/control-intimidation-and-harassment-lawyers-china https://www.hrw.org/report/2008/04/28/walking-thin-ice/contr...

anaganisk 4y ago

Of course, it is much better than one country known as meddling with other govts compared to another country that meddles with other governments.