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This is an interesting idea with a good-hearted vision of privacy, so I’m glad someone is thinking about it and proposing something. The most valuable idea here

by dahart 4y ago

This is an interesting idea with a good-hearted vision of privacy, so I’m glad someone is thinking about it and proposing something. The most valuable idea here is that you originate your data, not the company you’re interacting with just because they implemented a form. The laws currently let them frame themselves as owners of the data, so the number one thing we could use is a law that views personal data as owned by each person regardless of who collects it or how they collect it. I’m a bit skeptical that the shape of this concept as outlined will come to be, though maybe the framework and ideas can be used. It feels like they dove into the implementation, describing how it can be done, but haven’t addressed how to get companies on board nor provided incentives for them. We already have the technology for privacy and data control, what we really lack is the legal environment and proper incentives. In that sense I’d guess what we need is the strategy for how to pass these laws and establish incentives more than a description of the tech pipeline, no?

andsoitis 4y ago
> The most valuable idea here is that you originate your data, not the company you’re interacting with just because they implemented a form. While this may work for certain use cases, I don’t know that it is a stable definition of “my data”. One starts running into paradoxes when you consider data you generate when having a conversation with others, for example. I haven’t given this deep thought but perhaps our desire to use concepts or “property” is ill fated. On the other hand, a privacy lens can capture cases that “my data is what I generate” cannot adequately address, such as a friend snapping a picture of the inside of my house and posting it on social media.
- dahart 4y ago
  Oh yeah I totally agree, I don’t know how to define personal data (and I didn’t mean to presume to state one), especially whenever it involves someone else, and I think you might be right about whether the property concept is useful. I also think it’s really problematic to aim for the ability to revoke information we’ve chosen to share publicly. This concept piece doesn’t quite say that explicitly, it says you should be able revoke access to your vault, and that there should be information that can only be accessed through the vault (not copied), so effectively adds up to enough control to make private information that was previously shared. Some people are getting the idea that information that has been made public (even by themselves) should be revocable. We’ve never had that ability in history before, and information that’s “public” falls outside the bounds of this paper (because public information can be legally copied). Still, it’s an interesting debate and I think we’re going to see these paradoxes start to resolve with better and better reasoning. I’m glad it’s being debated even if there’s no solution yet.
eternityforest 4y ago
Transferable ownership is a very old idea, I don't see why it shouldn't apply to data. What if that personal data is an autobiography that I have released under CC0? If the law says I still own it, can ask for it to be deleted, etc, then CC0 or any other creative commons license means nothing. What we actually need is laws preventing people from getting arrested or losing access to housing, credit, or insurance based on warrantless data collection, rather than making the collection effectively impossible. I don't want a world without CCTV cameras, where cell carriers don't know our last position if we get murdered, and where journlists can't report on things in public or look through a data breach.

by dahart 4y ago

andsoitis 4y ago

> The most valuable idea here is that you originate your data, not the company you’re interacting with just because they implemented a form. While this may work for certain use cases, I don’t know that it is a stable definition of “my data”. One starts running into paradoxes when you consider data you generate when having a conversation with others, for example. I haven’t given this deep thought but perhaps our desire to use concepts or “property” is ill fated. On the other hand, a privacy lens can capture cases that “my data is what I generate” cannot adequately address, such as a friend snapping a picture of the inside of my house and posting it on social media.

dahart 4y ago
Oh yeah I totally agree, I don’t know how to define personal data (and I didn’t mean to presume to state one), especially whenever it involves someone else, and I think you might be right about whether the property concept is useful. I also think it’s really problematic to aim for the ability to revoke information we’ve chosen to share publicly. This concept piece doesn’t quite say that explicitly, it says you should be able revoke access to your vault, and that there should be information that can only be accessed through the vault (not copied), so effectively adds up to enough control to make private information that was previously shared. Some people are getting the idea that information that has been made public (even by themselves) should be revocable. We’ve never had that ability in history before, and information that’s “public” falls outside the bounds of this paper (because public information can be legally copied). Still, it’s an interesting debate and I think we’re going to see these paradoxes start to resolve with better and better reasoning. I’m glad it’s being debated even if there’s no solution yet.

eternityforest 4y ago

Transferable ownership is a very old idea, I don't see why it shouldn't apply to data. What if that personal data is an autobiography that I have released under CC0? If the law says I still own it, can ask for it to be deleted, etc, then CC0 or any other creative commons license means nothing. What we actually need is laws preventing people from getting arrested or losing access to housing, credit, or insurance based on warrantless data collection, rather than making the collection effectively impossible. I don't want a world without CCTV cameras, where cell carriers don't know our last position if we get murdered, and where journlists can't report on things in public or look through a data breach.