5 ms·

I honestly wonder if the native Americans were (destined to be) screwed even before Europeans set foot in Americas. They were behind a formidable technology cur

I honestly wonder if the native Americans were (destined to be) screwed even before Europeans set foot in Americas. They were behind a formidable technology curve and I truly wonder would they have fared better if Japanese or Russian (or possibly even Chinese) colonists (the closest geographic candidate colonists) showed up. Consider it as a thought experiment - something that's been popping in my head lately: under what sort of ideal conditions would have the native civilizations and peoples of Americas been left unmolested by anyone? An entire continent left in isolation while the more technologically advanced societies reached the way station of 'universal human rights'? [typically don't mention downvotes but a difficult question does not merit it. If you so strongly disagree, discuss it.]

mynameishere 4y ago
If migration from Europe (and I suppose Africa) hadn't been unrelenting, then the natives would have gradually built up a modern-ish, defendable civilization. Maybe. It would have required some centralization of government as well, to prevent the divide-and-conquer tactics used against them.
- eternalban 4y ago
  Right, the question is precisely this: who would leave the juicy morsel of Americas on the table in the 15th-20th century historic range. The means and processes may possibly vary. Just to be clear, even today in 21st you will note there are many global actors that deny the very notion of a "universal human rights". I'm not European myself and definitely not defending what happened. But it seems to me that what happened is an (inevitable) accident of history: two worlds that evolved in effective isolation for thousands of years. And I wonder: which of the relatively advanced societies would have left them in peace so they could catch up and integrate as you propose?
  - katbyte 4y ago
    What happened to natives in America was anything but an accident https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY
    - dinkumthinkum 4y ago
      I think you are not aware of the way the word “accident” is used here, or you are using its misinterpretation as a jumping off point.
- dinkumthinkum 4y ago
  Is that serious? Behind the technology curve is a massive understatement. They were thousands of years behind in nearly every area of development.
  - selfmodruntime 4y ago
    I wonder if the massive riches of nature they had for a low amount of people played a role in this
    - eternalban 4y ago
      I think Yuval Noah Harari would agree with you. You may find his book Sapiens of interest. - The point you raise touches directly on the essence of my original comment (which should have been clearer): When we think of the value-system matrix of the 3 co-evolving continents of Europe, Africa, and Asia, the core commonality that is specially distinct from the value-system matrix that evolved in Americas is in regards to notions of property and nature 'husbandry'. Any vanguard explorers from the Eurasian civilisational matrix would bring with them the entirely alien notions of property and systemic cultivation of nature, and that would inevitably result in a confrontation of value systems, in which the technologically superior side would dominate.
neither_color 4y ago
The Russians did explore Alaska and interact with natives, but all they did was set up some missionary and trade posts. China explored Africa and then became isolationist. Japan was always isolationist until forced to open up by the US.
- wpietri 4y ago
  And not just Alaska, but California as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_North_America#California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_North_...
- eternalban 4y ago
  Russians had to pass through the Caucausus and Steppes before they reached Alaska. https://www.international.ucla.edu/apc/centralasia/article/139315 https://www.international.ucla.edu/apc/centralasia/article/1... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Nogai_Uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Nogai_Uprising https://fountainmagazine.com/1993/issue-2-april-june-1993/the-end-of-russian-genocide https://fountainmagazine.com/1993/issue-2-april-june-1993/th... (The Chinese are in the clear imo, so I parenthesized them.)

mynameishere 4y ago

If migration from Europe (and I suppose Africa) hadn't been unrelenting, then the natives would have gradually built up a modern-ish, defendable civilization. Maybe. It would have required some centralization of government as well, to prevent the divide-and-conquer tactics used against them.

eternalban 4y ago
Right, the question is precisely this: who would leave the juicy morsel of Americas on the table in the 15th-20th century historic range. The means and processes may possibly vary. Just to be clear, even today in 21st you will note there are many global actors that deny the very notion of a "universal human rights". I'm not European myself and definitely not defending what happened. But it seems to me that what happened is an (inevitable) accident of history: two worlds that evolved in effective isolation for thousands of years. And I wonder: which of the relatively advanced societies would have left them in peace so they could catch up and integrate as you propose?
- katbyte 4y ago
  What happened to natives in America was anything but an accident https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY
  - dinkumthinkum 4y ago
    I think you are not aware of the way the word “accident” is used here, or you are using its misinterpretation as a jumping off point.
dinkumthinkum 4y ago
Is that serious? Behind the technology curve is a massive understatement. They were thousands of years behind in nearly every area of development.
- selfmodruntime 4y ago
  I wonder if the massive riches of nature they had for a low amount of people played a role in this
  - eternalban 4y ago
    I think Yuval Noah Harari would agree with you. You may find his book Sapiens of interest. - The point you raise touches directly on the essence of my original comment (which should have been clearer): When we think of the value-system matrix of the 3 co-evolving continents of Europe, Africa, and Asia, the core commonality that is specially distinct from the value-system matrix that evolved in Americas is in regards to notions of property and nature 'husbandry'. Any vanguard explorers from the Eurasian civilisational matrix would bring with them the entirely alien notions of property and systemic cultivation of nature, and that would inevitably result in a confrontation of value systems, in which the technologically superior side would dominate.

neither_color 4y ago

The Russians did explore Alaska and interact with natives, but all they did was set up some missionary and trade posts. China explored Africa and then became isolationist. Japan was always isolationist until forced to open up by the US.

wpietri 4y ago
And not just Alaska, but California as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_North_America#California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_North_...
eternalban 4y ago
Russians had to pass through the Caucausus and Steppes before they reached Alaska. https://www.international.ucla.edu/apc/centralasia/article/139315 https://www.international.ucla.edu/apc/centralasia/article/1... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Nogai_Uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Nogai_Uprising https://fountainmagazine.com/1993/issue-2-april-june-1993/the-end-of-russian-genocide https://fountainmagazine.com/1993/issue-2-april-june-1993/th... (The Chinese are in the clear imo, so I parenthesized them.)