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Even though it's not technically wrong, but I also don't see how viewing a people (or worse, viewing yourself) as a perpetual victim is in any way useful. There

Even though it's not technically wrong, but I also don't see how viewing a people (or worse, viewing yourself) as a perpetual victim is in any way useful. There's no rewriting the past. Saying "I'll never amount to anything because of what happened 50, 100, 200 years ago" denies your agency, and thus a fundamental aspect of your humanity. Some people seem to think that the bigotry of low expectations is "social justice".

ethanbond 4y ago
No, my argument is that this is ongoing. The moment something of value is found on native land, even today, it’s taken from them.
pigsty 4y ago
Put someone in a village 100 miles from the nearest town, deny them the basic infrastructure you provide for everyone else, deny them proper education, skimp on government job programs provided to other struggling towns that would eventually lead to wealth flowing in and free enterprise, and let this wealth divide grow for decades and you’ll see you’ve successfully made a hole to trap people in. It’s not bigotry. Even if you want to ignore the centuries of active destruction of their families, the infrastructure gap is huge. Take a look at, say, the difference between Japan and Vietnam. Both got absolutely leveled by the US. One of them had infrastructure rebuilt by the US and investment in local enterprise by the US government. One is a rich country. One is a very poor country that’s only recently rising up… because other people are coming in and helping build infrastructure and providing jobs for a people who were crushed and isolated from the world for decades. There’s a wealth and basic life standard gap that is impossible to bootstrap. Any successful place built from “nothing” got there through getting outside investment in some form, or through centuries of time left to grow through their own means. Plus their lands continue to be exploited. When oil or water or something is used by an outside company, instead of letting them have it and enriching the people on the land, eminent domain is exercised or companies buy it from the gov for pennies.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  The point isn't "are they poor?" or "why are they poor?" but "how do you lift a community out of poverty?". There are many poor communities across the country, in all races and creeds. The past can't be rewritten- focusing on "you are poor because X happened in the past" is just telling someone there is no reason for hope. The way out involves both external and internal forces; external in the sense of support for development of infrastructure and economic activity, internal in the sense of a willingness and belief of capability of change. Many tribes who have successful casinos don't see significant improvements depending on their payout structure, because simply giving money to people with no financial literacy is a recipe for loss. This is true for all communities facing poverty.
  - pigsty 4y ago
    Also because a casino isn’t infrastructure. A casino is the equivalent of building liquor stores and calling it a job well done. Amidst a thriving economy it’s fine. Otherwise it’s making a few wealthy at the cost of community health. Casinos are a way tribes found to generate wealth as an exception to state laws. It’s one of the very few possible “true” bootstrapping examples. But no healthy community is dominated by casinos.
- landemva 4y ago
  > There’s a wealth and basic life standard gap that is impossible to bootstrap. USA southern border is over-run with poor people trying to get in. I wonder what is different for these folks?
  - llamaimperative 4y ago
    I’ve just explained what’s different. A successful genocide campaign carried out over centuries that has slowed but not stopped and certainly not reversed course.
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      Many of those crossing illegally are also descendants of repressed peoples, either African and / or already native at the time of Spanish settlement. They come from communities facing brutal repression, either at the hands of government military or drug cartels. You seem to view the world as if any of these problems are unique to America.
spanktheuser 4y ago
The trapped individuals are living are living in a location where these sorts of conditions are extreme. Prior to climate change they may have been unthinkable. People with limited resources don't devote them to mitigating once in a lifetime risks. Their everyday life is constrained: buy a more reliable car vs. save for a child's education. Eat healthier food vs. visit the doctor. These Native Americans live in a vulnerable location that provides little land-based wealth, isolates them from population centers & thus opportunity, and exposes them to environmental threat. If you can't see how that impacts their opportunity to "amount to anything," I suggest relocating. Become their neighbors and report back in 10 years whether you think this had any deleterious impact on what your career has amounted to.
- landemva 4y ago
  > Prior to climate change Now climate change in winter makes wheel loaders not function properly and people are too cold?
- zdragnar 4y ago
  The first paragraph is absolute nonsense. This storm is an outlier, for sure, but winters have on average been getting easier, not harder, in the upper Midwest.
jrochkind1 4y ago
Pine Ridge has unemployment of 80-90%, median income of $4000/year, and life expectancy of ~50 years. Many people live without electricity or running water. I don't know that people who live there say "I'll never amount to anything", I don't think any of us participating in this conversation live there; probably none of us are natives. So we're not talking about what they say about themselves, we're talking about what we say about them. If not the legacy of expropriation, displacement, and cultural destruction... the usual explanation is that there is just something wrong with these people as people, something diseased, pathological with their culture. I don't see how that is in any way useful, or somehow more respectful of "agency". Up until the 70s, children (children!) were still being forcibly sent to prison-like (for real, prison-like) boarding schools. https://archleague.org/article/cheyenne-river-reservation-boarding-schools/ https://archleague.org/article/cheyenne-river-reservation-bo... I don't think there is anything wrong with Oglala culture -- I think they have the cultural and personal resources they need to thrive if conditions are changed to make up for generations of intentional targetted destruction of their material resources and cultural life and social networks. "Social justice" would be restoration of sovreignty, reparations (a massive "marshall plan" level of physical and human infrastructure investment), an apology and general cultural recognition and education throughout the USA of native history, legal enforcement of treaty rights that have been ignored/thrown out, etc. While it's a situation with great differences as well as similarities, New Zealand's reparative policies toward the Maori can provide some models. https://www.justiceinfo.net/en/79224-new-zealand-leads-way-reparations-indigenous-people.html https://www.justiceinfo.net/en/79224-new-zealand-leads-way-r... Blaming the Oglala Lakota people for the result of generations of targeted destruction of their way of life and ability to survive is not somehow more respectful of their "agency" or dignity. Like, what are we actually talking about here right now? The lack of capacity of people on the Pine Ridge reservation to handle a weather emergency? How is it more respectful of agency or dignity to say we shouldn't talk about how this is the result of generations of colonialism, that intentionally removed the material and cultural resources people would use to take care of themselves? Is it more respectful of agency or dignity to suggest that they are the poorest community in the USA because of their own cultural failings? I agree that liberals as well as right-wingers can pathologize native culture, suggest that their culture is broken and needs to be "fixed", that the problem is internal -- I think suggesting that there is something wrong with native culture is what is disrespectful of their actual dignity, agency, and continued ability to survive under conditions designed for the opposite. They are very strong people, the evidence is that they are still there, and I hope they think of themselves thusly.

ethanbond 4y ago

No, my argument is that this is ongoing. The moment something of value is found on native land, even today, it’s taken from them.

pigsty 4y ago

Put someone in a village 100 miles from the nearest town, deny them the basic infrastructure you provide for everyone else, deny them proper education, skimp on government job programs provided to other struggling towns that would eventually lead to wealth flowing in and free enterprise, and let this wealth divide grow for decades and you’ll see you’ve successfully made a hole to trap people in. It’s not bigotry. Even if you want to ignore the centuries of active destruction of their families, the infrastructure gap is huge. Take a look at, say, the difference between Japan and Vietnam. Both got absolutely leveled by the US. One of them had infrastructure rebuilt by the US and investment in local enterprise by the US government. One is a rich country. One is a very poor country that’s only recently rising up… because other people are coming in and helping build infrastructure and providing jobs for a people who were crushed and isolated from the world for decades. There’s a wealth and basic life standard gap that is impossible to bootstrap. Any successful place built from “nothing” got there through getting outside investment in some form, or through centuries of time left to grow through their own means. Plus their lands continue to be exploited. When oil or water or something is used by an outside company, instead of letting them have it and enriching the people on the land, eminent domain is exercised or companies buy it from the gov for pennies.

zdragnar 4y ago
The point isn't "are they poor?" or "why are they poor?" but "how do you lift a community out of poverty?". There are many poor communities across the country, in all races and creeds. The past can't be rewritten- focusing on "you are poor because X happened in the past" is just telling someone there is no reason for hope. The way out involves both external and internal forces; external in the sense of support for development of infrastructure and economic activity, internal in the sense of a willingness and belief of capability of change. Many tribes who have successful casinos don't see significant improvements depending on their payout structure, because simply giving money to people with no financial literacy is a recipe for loss. This is true for all communities facing poverty.
- pigsty 4y ago
  Also because a casino isn’t infrastructure. A casino is the equivalent of building liquor stores and calling it a job well done. Amidst a thriving economy it’s fine. Otherwise it’s making a few wealthy at the cost of community health. Casinos are a way tribes found to generate wealth as an exception to state laws. It’s one of the very few possible “true” bootstrapping examples. But no healthy community is dominated by casinos.
landemva 4y ago
> There’s a wealth and basic life standard gap that is impossible to bootstrap. USA southern border is over-run with poor people trying to get in. I wonder what is different for these folks?
- llamaimperative 4y ago
  I’ve just explained what’s different. A successful genocide campaign carried out over centuries that has slowed but not stopped and certainly not reversed course.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    Many of those crossing illegally are also descendants of repressed peoples, either African and / or already native at the time of Spanish settlement. They come from communities facing brutal repression, either at the hands of government military or drug cartels. You seem to view the world as if any of these problems are unique to America.

spanktheuser 4y ago

The trapped individuals are living are living in a location where these sorts of conditions are extreme. Prior to climate change they may have been unthinkable. People with limited resources don't devote them to mitigating once in a lifetime risks. Their everyday life is constrained: buy a more reliable car vs. save for a child's education. Eat healthier food vs. visit the doctor. These Native Americans live in a vulnerable location that provides little land-based wealth, isolates them from population centers & thus opportunity, and exposes them to environmental threat. If you can't see how that impacts their opportunity to "amount to anything," I suggest relocating. Become their neighbors and report back in 10 years whether you think this had any deleterious impact on what your career has amounted to.

landemva 4y ago
> Prior to climate change Now climate change in winter makes wheel loaders not function properly and people are too cold?
zdragnar 4y ago
The first paragraph is absolute nonsense. This storm is an outlier, for sure, but winters have on average been getting easier, not harder, in the upper Midwest.

jrochkind1 4y ago

Pine Ridge has unemployment of 80-90%, median income of $4000/year, and life expectancy of ~50 years. Many people live without electricity or running water. I don't know that people who live there say "I'll never amount to anything", I don't think any of us participating in this conversation live there; probably none of us are natives. So we're not talking about what they say about themselves, we're talking about what we say about them. If not the legacy of expropriation, displacement, and cultural destruction... the usual explanation is that there is just something wrong with these people as people, something diseased, pathological with their culture. I don't see how that is in any way useful, or somehow more respectful of "agency". Up until the 70s, children (children!) were still being forcibly sent to prison-like (for real, prison-like) boarding schools. https://archleague.org/article/cheyenne-river-reservation-boarding-schools/ https://archleague.org/article/cheyenne-river-reservation-bo... I don't think there is anything wrong with Oglala culture -- I think they have the cultural and personal resources they need to thrive if conditions are changed to make up for generations of intentional targetted destruction of their material resources and cultural life and social networks. "Social justice" would be restoration of sovreignty, reparations (a massive "marshall plan" level of physical and human infrastructure investment), an apology and general cultural recognition and education throughout the USA of native history, legal enforcement of treaty rights that have been ignored/thrown out, etc. While it's a situation with great differences as well as similarities, New Zealand's reparative policies toward the Maori can provide some models. https://www.justiceinfo.net/en/79224-new-zealand-leads-way-reparations-indigenous-people.html https://www.justiceinfo.net/en/79224-new-zealand-leads-way-r... Blaming the Oglala Lakota people for the result of generations of targeted destruction of their way of life and ability to survive is not somehow more respectful of their "agency" or dignity. Like, what are we actually talking about here right now? The lack of capacity of people on the Pine Ridge reservation to handle a weather emergency? How is it more respectful of agency or dignity to say we shouldn't talk about how this is the result of generations of colonialism, that intentionally removed the material and cultural resources people would use to take care of themselves? Is it more respectful of agency or dignity to suggest that they are the poorest community in the USA because of their own cultural failings? I agree that liberals as well as right-wingers can pathologize native culture, suggest that their culture is broken and needs to be "fixed", that the problem is internal -- I think suggesting that there is something wrong with native culture is what is disrespectful of their actual dignity, agency, and continued ability to survive under conditions designed for the opposite. They are very strong people, the evidence is that they are still there, and I hope they think of themselves thusly.