32 ms·

Yes, why aren't these people self sufficient after we took away all their means of self sufficiency? It's a real big mystery isn't it.

kspacewalk2 4y ago
>Yes, why aren't these people self sufficient after we took away all their means of self sufficiency? This sounds very much like "racism of low expectations". "These people" are just as self-sufficient as any other group of modern people of similar socioeconomic background. It's been 100+ years since they were mistreated in any serious fashion. I come from eastern Europe and 150 years ago most of my ancestors were serfs, only a rung or two above chattel slaves on the ladder of human condition. If someone seriously suggested that well, what do you expect of these poor chaps, serfdom and all, I think I'd get quite upset. Just food for thought about how both your phrasing and implications of what you're saying might seem to people who aren't from your background.
- xyzelement 4y ago
  This is exactly it. Many peoples suffered extremely bad histories (Jews, Armenians, Chinese under Communism etc) and rise to overcome it in modern day. History is not fair but your actions yesterday determine your life today and your actions today determine your future. It is extremely damaging to sustain this culture of of course your life is shit because of what happened hundreds of years ago, nothing you can do
  - ethanbond 4y ago
    "100 years ago" is a weird way to describe "ongoing harm as recently as... earlier this year." https://www.npr.org/2022/02/18/1081872135/native-americans-protest-proposed-copper-mine-in-arizona https://www.npr.org/2022/02/18/1081872135/native-americans-p... Or the US government's uranium mining on Navajo land continuing to poison people today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_and_the_Navajo_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_and_the_Navajo_...
    - xyzelement 4y ago
      What does mine placement have to do with a community's ability to store emergency firewood where it's accessible in an emergency?
      - ethanbond 4y ago
        The same genocidal policies that enable resource extraction with complete disregard for local populations are the ones responsible (intentionally) for the abject poverty that renders these populations extremely vulnerable to weather events. Most Americans cannot comprehend that this level of poverty exists within their borders. For example, these populations have to be spread across massive ranges of completely worthless land, making infrastructure extremely inefficient even in scenarios where they have the financial means to invest in it whatsoever (which is also rare for all the same reasons^)
      - msrenee 4y ago
        Well, that example was about a Navajo community. Quite a long way from the Pine Ridge rez. Very different people and culture. They gave that as an example in response to the claim that the abuse of natives is historical and not actively happening. While it is not directly damage done to the occupants of Pine Ridge, it does demonstrate that the sort of injustices that destroy native communities are still occurring.
- llamaimperative 4y ago
  Or what you're comparing is a largely successful genocide (American natives) to either a non-genocide (yeah history was mostly poverty-stricken) or unsuccessful genocides (various groups in Europe).
- katbyte 4y ago
  I really suggest you watch this video: https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY You cannot really compare the successful genocide natives in NA to being poor in Europe.
- fencepost 4y ago
  I come from eastern Europe and 150 years ago most of my ancestors were serfs, only a rung or two above chattel slaves on the ladder of human condition. 50 years ago a lot of their descendants in the Eastern Bloc countries were probably still in that condition or in the USSR factory worker equivalent.
  - poulpy123 4y ago
    Lol you should learn a bit about the history of these countries. 50 years ago was the seventies. While not as confortable as in the west, its was far to be at the level of serfs.
    - smcl 4y ago
      The original quoted statement in GP is a pretty common thing I have seen in younger people in now-prosperous former-communist central/eastern European countries. Minorities being subject to institutional racism in the form of apartheid, redlining and such is completely handwaved away and countered with "we had it bad under communism, but we recovered so why can't they". There are thankfully a growing number who don't think like this, but many simply cannot be convinced and will dismiss your explanations as excuse-making, or try-hard "woke"-ness. Hell, I've even encountered guys here insisting that because they're so non-racist they can use the n-word. I think that many just don't know how widespread, deeply ingrained and recent much of this was - they think there was slavery, a bit of racism hanging around and then (in the USA at least) the civil rights act sorted things out and made everything equal. And that's really similar in nature to the comment you replied to - people have picked up a simplified and wrong version of history of Warsaw Pact countries and they're just a bit ignorant of the truth.
    - kspacewalk2 4y ago
      Yes, learn a bit about the history. In the USSR, peasants were essentially serfs. They only got internal passports in the 1960s and 1970s, and without those they could not leave the village without permission. They worked for a state collective farm, most of their pay came in just counting the "labour-days" they contributed - a totally self-containbed, essentially prison-like economic system. So yes, I agree, I originally brought up serfs as being something from 150 years ago, but it was more like 50-60 years ago.
- dmkolobov 4y ago
  There’s a very real difference between mostly everyone being serfs long ago, and a relatively small, particular group being targeted by government sponsored economic/cultural/physical violence in your lifetime. I live in Denver, with a very large Native population, and many still remember being taken from their families and being forced to speak English, while the rest of the country experience the affluence boom of the suburbs and such. Acknowledging that recent history isn’t controversial in those communities.
- thebigman433 4y ago
  > It's been 100+ years since they were mistreated in any serious fashion This is just patently untrue. Land is still being stolen, programs to help Indigenous people are still being cut. I dont think people realize how close our history actually is. There were still nearly 10,000 children in Native American residential schools as of 2007. The height of them ended in the 70s, which is barely 50 years away. Thats quite literally the parents of modern day teenagers and young adults. These schools have absolutely decimated the population and culture of indigenous people. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools#:~:text=Tribal%20control%20over%20their%20schools,schools%20had%20declined%20to%209%2C500 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schoo....
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- vkou 4y ago
  > It's been 100+ years since they were mistreated in any serious fashion. The last residential school (Where native children would be kidnapped into, to have the Indian, quite literally, beaten out of them) in Canada closed in 1998.
  - kspacewalk2 4y ago
    Yes, but this is very simplistic, since it's insinuating that the beatings for Native languages and other horrific mistreatment took place in 1998, whereas in fact that's not close to true, the worst evils of what we associate with Residential Schools ended many decades before the 1990s, mostly before WW2. Doesn't make them good or right, forcing kids into boarding schools based on their cultural background is very wrong even if there are no beatings or malnutrition.

kspacewalk2 4y ago

>Yes, why aren't these people self sufficient after we took away all their means of self sufficiency? This sounds very much like "racism of low expectations". "These people" are just as self-sufficient as any other group of modern people of similar socioeconomic background. It's been 100+ years since they were mistreated in any serious fashion. I come from eastern Europe and 150 years ago most of my ancestors were serfs, only a rung or two above chattel slaves on the ladder of human condition. If someone seriously suggested that well, what do you expect of these poor chaps, serfdom and all, I think I'd get quite upset. Just food for thought about how both your phrasing and implications of what you're saying might seem to people who aren't from your background.

xyzelement 4y ago
This is exactly it. Many peoples suffered extremely bad histories (Jews, Armenians, Chinese under Communism etc) and rise to overcome it in modern day. History is not fair but your actions yesterday determine your life today and your actions today determine your future. It is extremely damaging to sustain this culture of of course your life is shit because of what happened hundreds of years ago, nothing you can do
- ethanbond 4y ago
  "100 years ago" is a weird way to describe "ongoing harm as recently as... earlier this year." https://www.npr.org/2022/02/18/1081872135/native-americans-protest-proposed-copper-mine-in-arizona https://www.npr.org/2022/02/18/1081872135/native-americans-p... Or the US government's uranium mining on Navajo land continuing to poison people today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_and_the_Navajo_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_and_the_Navajo_...
  - xyzelement 4y ago
    What does mine placement have to do with a community's ability to store emergency firewood where it's accessible in an emergency?
    - ethanbond 4y ago
      The same genocidal policies that enable resource extraction with complete disregard for local populations are the ones responsible (intentionally) for the abject poverty that renders these populations extremely vulnerable to weather events. Most Americans cannot comprehend that this level of poverty exists within their borders. For example, these populations have to be spread across massive ranges of completely worthless land, making infrastructure extremely inefficient even in scenarios where they have the financial means to invest in it whatsoever (which is also rare for all the same reasons^)
    - msrenee 4y ago
      Well, that example was about a Navajo community. Quite a long way from the Pine Ridge rez. Very different people and culture. They gave that as an example in response to the claim that the abuse of natives is historical and not actively happening. While it is not directly damage done to the occupants of Pine Ridge, it does demonstrate that the sort of injustices that destroy native communities are still occurring.
llamaimperative 4y ago
Or what you're comparing is a largely successful genocide (American natives) to either a non-genocide (yeah history was mostly poverty-stricken) or unsuccessful genocides (various groups in Europe).
katbyte 4y ago
I really suggest you watch this video: https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY You cannot really compare the successful genocide natives in NA to being poor in Europe.
fencepost 4y ago
I come from eastern Europe and 150 years ago most of my ancestors were serfs, only a rung or two above chattel slaves on the ladder of human condition. 50 years ago a lot of their descendants in the Eastern Bloc countries were probably still in that condition or in the USSR factory worker equivalent.
- poulpy123 4y ago
  Lol you should learn a bit about the history of these countries. 50 years ago was the seventies. While not as confortable as in the west, its was far to be at the level of serfs.
  - smcl 4y ago
    The original quoted statement in GP is a pretty common thing I have seen in younger people in now-prosperous former-communist central/eastern European countries. Minorities being subject to institutional racism in the form of apartheid, redlining and such is completely handwaved away and countered with "we had it bad under communism, but we recovered so why can't they". There are thankfully a growing number who don't think like this, but many simply cannot be convinced and will dismiss your explanations as excuse-making, or try-hard "woke"-ness. Hell, I've even encountered guys here insisting that because they're so non-racist they can use the n-word. I think that many just don't know how widespread, deeply ingrained and recent much of this was - they think there was slavery, a bit of racism hanging around and then (in the USA at least) the civil rights act sorted things out and made everything equal. And that's really similar in nature to the comment you replied to - people have picked up a simplified and wrong version of history of Warsaw Pact countries and they're just a bit ignorant of the truth.
  - kspacewalk2 4y ago
    Yes, learn a bit about the history. In the USSR, peasants were essentially serfs. They only got internal passports in the 1960s and 1970s, and without those they could not leave the village without permission. They worked for a state collective farm, most of their pay came in just counting the "labour-days" they contributed - a totally self-containbed, essentially prison-like economic system. So yes, I agree, I originally brought up serfs as being something from 150 years ago, but it was more like 50-60 years ago.
dmkolobov 4y ago
There’s a very real difference between mostly everyone being serfs long ago, and a relatively small, particular group being targeted by government sponsored economic/cultural/physical violence in your lifetime. I live in Denver, with a very large Native population, and many still remember being taken from their families and being forced to speak English, while the rest of the country experience the affluence boom of the suburbs and such. Acknowledging that recent history isn’t controversial in those communities.
thebigman433 4y ago
> It's been 100+ years since they were mistreated in any serious fashion This is just patently untrue. Land is still being stolen, programs to help Indigenous people are still being cut. I dont think people realize how close our history actually is. There were still nearly 10,000 children in Native American residential schools as of 2007. The height of them ended in the 70s, which is barely 50 years away. Thats quite literally the parents of modern day teenagers and young adults. These schools have absolutely decimated the population and culture of indigenous people. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools#:~:text=Tribal%20control%20over%20their%20schools,schools%20had%20declined%20to%209%2C500 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schoo....
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
vkou 4y ago
> It's been 100+ years since they were mistreated in any serious fashion. The last residential school (Where native children would be kidnapped into, to have the Indian, quite literally, beaten out of them) in Canada closed in 1998.
- kspacewalk2 4y ago
  Yes, but this is very simplistic, since it's insinuating that the beatings for Native languages and other horrific mistreatment took place in 1998, whereas in fact that's not close to true, the worst evils of what we associate with Residential Schools ended many decades before the 1990s, mostly before WW2. Doesn't make them good or right, forcing kids into boarding schools based on their cultural background is very wrong even if there are no beatings or malnutrition.