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A nice cop out. Are you saying those on the reserves are generationally crippled beyond reproach? Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same i

A nice cop out. Are you saying those on the reserves are generationally crippled beyond reproach? Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why?

kevingadd 4y ago
> Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why? The person you're replying to explained why: We did it to them on purpose to wipe them out.
- chasd00 4y ago
  > We did it to them on purpose to wipe them out. "we"? I wouldn't be so presumptuous.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    You did not. The society that you are a part of did systematically disassemble their society and slaughter any resistance. So “we” got our trains, oil and highways, and turned the Great Plains into one of the great breadbaskets of the world, at least for awhile. Unfortunately the depletion of the aquifers will leave those same plains a desert from an agricultural perspective in many of our lifetimes. Maybe when that land is worthless to society again the Sioux will get it back.
    - chasd00 4y ago
      Once again, you’re making a lot of assumptions about the person you’re replying to.
      - kevingadd 4y ago
        That or you're just choosing to unfavorably read the word "we" as if it refers to you specifically, instead of to the poster and their cultural, racial or national group, in order to avoid engaging with the substance of their post?
Spooky23 4y ago
They are people warehoused in obscure rural areas with subsistence support. They get enough to live not enough to thrive. The federal government provided healthcare, for example, but funds it in such a way that they run out of operating funds in month 10 or 11 of the annual budget. Like most people in this sort situation, the malaise takes over. Alcohol and drug abuse is rampant. Opportunity is nil. Breaking out of the cycle is very difficult and requires an individual to have the right combination of luck, street smarts, ability and ability to walk away that is hard to find.
bombcar 4y ago
More like everyone who can escape does; this obviously only leaves those who cannot escape.
ethanbond 4y ago
Hmmm, nope? I’m saying that these particular people had very particular things done to them intended to yield exactly these particular outcomes.
zdragnar 4y ago
Even though it's not technically wrong, but I also don't see how viewing a people (or worse, viewing yourself) as a perpetual victim is in any way useful. There's no rewriting the past. Saying "I'll never amount to anything because of what happened 50, 100, 200 years ago" denies your agency, and thus a fundamental aspect of your humanity. Some people seem to think that the bigotry of low expectations is "social justice".
- ethanbond 4y ago
  No, my argument is that this is ongoing. The moment something of value is found on native land, even today, it’s taken from them.
- pigsty 4y ago
  Put someone in a village 100 miles from the nearest town, deny them the basic infrastructure you provide for everyone else, deny them proper education, skimp on government job programs provided to other struggling towns that would eventually lead to wealth flowing in and free enterprise, and let this wealth divide grow for decades and you’ll see you’ve successfully made a hole to trap people in. It’s not bigotry. Even if you want to ignore the centuries of active destruction of their families, the infrastructure gap is huge. Take a look at, say, the difference between Japan and Vietnam. Both got absolutely leveled by the US. One of them had infrastructure rebuilt by the US and investment in local enterprise by the US government. One is a rich country. One is a very poor country that’s only recently rising up… because other people are coming in and helping build infrastructure and providing jobs for a people who were crushed and isolated from the world for decades. There’s a wealth and basic life standard gap that is impossible to bootstrap. Any successful place built from “nothing” got there through getting outside investment in some form, or through centuries of time left to grow through their own means. Plus their lands continue to be exploited. When oil or water or something is used by an outside company, instead of letting them have it and enriching the people on the land, eminent domain is exercised or companies buy it from the gov for pennies.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    The point isn't "are they poor?" or "why are they poor?" but "how do you lift a community out of poverty?". There are many poor communities across the country, in all races and creeds. The past can't be rewritten- focusing on "you are poor because X happened in the past" is just telling someone there is no reason for hope. The way out involves both external and internal forces; external in the sense of support for development of infrastructure and economic activity, internal in the sense of a willingness and belief of capability of change. Many tribes who have successful casinos don't see significant improvements depending on their payout structure, because simply giving money to people with no financial literacy is a recipe for loss. This is true for all communities facing poverty.

A nice cop out. Are you saying those on the reserves are generationally crippled beyond reproach? Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why?

kevingadd 4y ago

> Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why? The person you're replying to explained why: We did it to them on purpose to wipe them out.

chasd00 4y ago
> We did it to them on purpose to wipe them out. "we"? I wouldn't be so presumptuous.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  You did not. The society that you are a part of did systematically disassemble their society and slaughter any resistance. So “we” got our trains, oil and highways, and turned the Great Plains into one of the great breadbaskets of the world, at least for awhile. Unfortunately the depletion of the aquifers will leave those same plains a desert from an agricultural perspective in many of our lifetimes. Maybe when that land is worthless to society again the Sioux will get it back.
  - chasd00 4y ago
    Once again, you’re making a lot of assumptions about the person you’re replying to.
    - kevingadd 4y ago
      That or you're just choosing to unfavorably read the word "we" as if it refers to you specifically, instead of to the poster and their cultural, racial or national group, in order to avoid engaging with the substance of their post?

Spooky23 4y ago

They are people warehoused in obscure rural areas with subsistence support. They get enough to live not enough to thrive. The federal government provided healthcare, for example, but funds it in such a way that they run out of operating funds in month 10 or 11 of the annual budget. Like most people in this sort situation, the malaise takes over. Alcohol and drug abuse is rampant. Opportunity is nil. Breaking out of the cycle is very difficult and requires an individual to have the right combination of luck, street smarts, ability and ability to walk away that is hard to find.

bombcar 4y ago

More like everyone who can escape does; this obviously only leaves those who cannot escape.

ethanbond 4y ago

Hmmm, nope? I’m saying that these particular people had very particular things done to them intended to yield exactly these particular outcomes.

zdragnar 4y ago

Even though it's not technically wrong, but I also don't see how viewing a people (or worse, viewing yourself) as a perpetual victim is in any way useful. There's no rewriting the past. Saying "I'll never amount to anything because of what happened 50, 100, 200 years ago" denies your agency, and thus a fundamental aspect of your humanity. Some people seem to think that the bigotry of low expectations is "social justice".

ethanbond 4y ago
No, my argument is that this is ongoing. The moment something of value is found on native land, even today, it’s taken from them.
pigsty 4y ago
Put someone in a village 100 miles from the nearest town, deny them the basic infrastructure you provide for everyone else, deny them proper education, skimp on government job programs provided to other struggling towns that would eventually lead to wealth flowing in and free enterprise, and let this wealth divide grow for decades and you’ll see you’ve successfully made a hole to trap people in. It’s not bigotry. Even if you want to ignore the centuries of active destruction of their families, the infrastructure gap is huge. Take a look at, say, the difference between Japan and Vietnam. Both got absolutely leveled by the US. One of them had infrastructure rebuilt by the US and investment in local enterprise by the US government. One is a rich country. One is a very poor country that’s only recently rising up… because other people are coming in and helping build infrastructure and providing jobs for a people who were crushed and isolated from the world for decades. There’s a wealth and basic life standard gap that is impossible to bootstrap. Any successful place built from “nothing” got there through getting outside investment in some form, or through centuries of time left to grow through their own means. Plus their lands continue to be exploited. When oil or water or something is used by an outside company, instead of letting them have it and enriching the people on the land, eminent domain is exercised or companies buy it from the gov for pennies.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  The point isn't "are they poor?" or "why are they poor?" but "how do you lift a community out of poverty?". There are many poor communities across the country, in all races and creeds. The past can't be rewritten- focusing on "you are poor because X happened in the past" is just telling someone there is no reason for hope. The way out involves both external and internal forces; external in the sense of support for development of infrastructure and economic activity, internal in the sense of a willingness and belief of capability of change. Many tribes who have successful casinos don't see significant improvements depending on their payout structure, because simply giving money to people with no financial literacy is a recipe for loss. This is true for all communities facing poverty.