5 ms·

The real story of every tragedy that hits a reservation is that they all sit downstream of a horrific, orchestrated genocide campaign intended to destroy these

The real story of every tragedy that hits a reservation is that they all sit downstream of a horrific, orchestrated genocide campaign intended to destroy these people’s history, culture, and knowledge of self-sufficiency. Put ‘em on the shittiest plots of land you can find, steal their children, ban them from speaking their languages and from passing their knowledge between generations, then we can sit and gawk at their 100% intentional and designed cultural death spiral. Not to say that indigenous life was some suffering-free utopia, but it’s worth remembering their plight is not some emergent accident.

paultopia 4y ago
This this this this this this this this. ZERO coincidence that this tragedy happens on a reservation.
eternalban 4y ago
I honestly wonder if the native Americans were (destined to be) screwed even before Europeans set foot in Americas. They were behind a formidable technology curve and I truly wonder would they have fared better if Japanese or Russian (or possibly even Chinese) colonists (the closest geographic candidate colonists) showed up. Consider it as a thought experiment - something that's been popping in my head lately: under what sort of ideal conditions would have the native civilizations and peoples of Americas been left unmolested by anyone? An entire continent left in isolation while the more technologically advanced societies reached the way station of 'universal human rights'? [typically don't mention downvotes but a difficult question does not merit it. If you so strongly disagree, discuss it.]
- mynameishere 4y ago
  If migration from Europe (and I suppose Africa) hadn't been unrelenting, then the natives would have gradually built up a modern-ish, defendable civilization. Maybe. It would have required some centralization of government as well, to prevent the divide-and-conquer tactics used against them.
  - eternalban 4y ago
    Right, the question is precisely this: who would leave the juicy morsel of Americas on the table in the 15th-20th century historic range. The means and processes may possibly vary. Just to be clear, even today in 21st you will note there are many global actors that deny the very notion of a "universal human rights". I'm not European myself and definitely not defending what happened. But it seems to me that what happened is an (inevitable) accident of history: two worlds that evolved in effective isolation for thousands of years. And I wonder: which of the relatively advanced societies would have left them in peace so they could catch up and integrate as you propose?
    - katbyte 4y ago
      What happened to natives in America was anything but an accident https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY
      - dinkumthinkum 4y ago
        I think you are not aware of the way the word “accident” is used here, or you are using its misinterpretation as a jumping off point.
  - dinkumthinkum 4y ago
    Is that serious? Behind the technology curve is a massive understatement. They were thousands of years behind in nearly every area of development.
    - selfmodruntime 4y ago
      I wonder if the massive riches of nature they had for a low amount of people played a role in this
      - eternalban 4y ago
        I think Yuval Noah Harari would agree with you. You may find his book Sapiens of interest. - The point you raise touches directly on the essence of my original comment (which should have been clearer): When we think of the value-system matrix of the 3 co-evolving continents of Europe, Africa, and Asia, the core commonality that is specially distinct from the value-system matrix that evolved in Americas is in regards to notions of property and nature 'husbandry'. Any vanguard explorers from the Eurasian civilisational matrix would bring with them the entirely alien notions of property and systemic cultivation of nature, and that would inevitably result in a confrontation of value systems, in which the technologically superior side would dominate.
- neither_color 4y ago
  The Russians did explore Alaska and interact with natives, but all they did was set up some missionary and trade posts. China explored Africa and then became isolationist. Japan was always isolationist until forced to open up by the US.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    And not just Alaska, but California as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_North_America#California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_North_...
  - eternalban 4y ago
    Russians had to pass through the Caucausus and Steppes before they reached Alaska. https://www.international.ucla.edu/apc/centralasia/article/139315 https://www.international.ucla.edu/apc/centralasia/article/1... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Nogai_Uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Nogai_Uprising https://fountainmagazine.com/1993/issue-2-april-june-1993/the-end-of-russian-genocide https://fountainmagazine.com/1993/issue-2-april-june-1993/th... (The Chinese are in the clear imo, so I parenthesized them.)
landemva 4y ago
"their languages" were recognized as unique and useful in 1950s. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/american-indian-code-talkers https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/american-indi...
joemazerino 4y ago
A nice cop out. Are you saying those on the reserves are generationally crippled beyond reproach? Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why?
- kevingadd 4y ago
  > Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why? The person you're replying to explained why: We did it to them on purpose to wipe them out.
  - chasd00 4y ago
    > We did it to them on purpose to wipe them out. "we"? I wouldn't be so presumptuous.
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      You did not. The society that you are a part of did systematically disassemble their society and slaughter any resistance. So “we” got our trains, oil and highways, and turned the Great Plains into one of the great breadbaskets of the world, at least for awhile. Unfortunately the depletion of the aquifers will leave those same plains a desert from an agricultural perspective in many of our lifetimes. Maybe when that land is worthless to society again the Sioux will get it back.
      - chasd00 4y ago
        Once again, you’re making a lot of assumptions about the person you’re replying to.
        kevingadd 4y ago
        That or you're just choosing to unfavorably read the word "we" as if it refers to you specifically, instead of to the poster and their cultural, racial or national group, in order to avoid engaging with the substance of their post?
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
Yes, why aren't these people self sufficient after we took away all their means of self sufficiency? It's a real big mystery isn't it.
- kspacewalk2 4y ago
  >Yes, why aren't these people self sufficient after we took away all their means of self sufficiency? This sounds very much like "racism of low expectations". "These people" are just as self-sufficient as any other group of modern people of similar socioeconomic background. It's been 100+ years since they were mistreated in any serious fashion. I come from eastern Europe and 150 years ago most of my ancestors were serfs, only a rung or two above chattel slaves on the ladder of human condition. If someone seriously suggested that well, what do you expect of these poor chaps, serfdom and all, I think I'd get quite upset. Just food for thought about how both your phrasing and implications of what you're saying might seem to people who aren't from your background.
  - xyzelement 4y ago
    This is exactly it. Many peoples suffered extremely bad histories (Jews, Armenians, Chinese under Communism etc) and rise to overcome it in modern day. History is not fair but your actions yesterday determine your life today and your actions today determine your future. It is extremely damaging to sustain this culture of of course your life is shit because of what happened hundreds of years ago, nothing you can do
    - ethanbond 4y ago
      "100 years ago" is a weird way to describe "ongoing harm as recently as... earlier this year." https://www.npr.org/2022/02/18/1081872135/native-americans-protest-proposed-copper-mine-in-arizona https://www.npr.org/2022/02/18/1081872135/native-americans-p... Or the US government's uranium mining on Navajo land continuing to poison people today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_and_the_Navajo_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_and_the_Navajo_...

paultopia 4y ago

This this this this this this this this. ZERO coincidence that this tragedy happens on a reservation.

eternalban 4y ago

I honestly wonder if the native Americans were (destined to be) screwed even before Europeans set foot in Americas. They were behind a formidable technology curve and I truly wonder would they have fared better if Japanese or Russian (or possibly even Chinese) colonists (the closest geographic candidate colonists) showed up. Consider it as a thought experiment - something that's been popping in my head lately: under what sort of ideal conditions would have the native civilizations and peoples of Americas been left unmolested by anyone? An entire continent left in isolation while the more technologically advanced societies reached the way station of 'universal human rights'? [typically don't mention downvotes but a difficult question does not merit it. If you so strongly disagree, discuss it.]

mynameishere 4y ago
If migration from Europe (and I suppose Africa) hadn't been unrelenting, then the natives would have gradually built up a modern-ish, defendable civilization. Maybe. It would have required some centralization of government as well, to prevent the divide-and-conquer tactics used against them.
- eternalban 4y ago
  Right, the question is precisely this: who would leave the juicy morsel of Americas on the table in the 15th-20th century historic range. The means and processes may possibly vary. Just to be clear, even today in 21st you will note there are many global actors that deny the very notion of a "universal human rights". I'm not European myself and definitely not defending what happened. But it seems to me that what happened is an (inevitable) accident of history: two worlds that evolved in effective isolation for thousands of years. And I wonder: which of the relatively advanced societies would have left them in peace so they could catch up and integrate as you propose?
  - katbyte 4y ago
    What happened to natives in America was anything but an accident https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY
    - dinkumthinkum 4y ago
      I think you are not aware of the way the word “accident” is used here, or you are using its misinterpretation as a jumping off point.
- dinkumthinkum 4y ago
  Is that serious? Behind the technology curve is a massive understatement. They were thousands of years behind in nearly every area of development.
  - selfmodruntime 4y ago
    I wonder if the massive riches of nature they had for a low amount of people played a role in this
    - eternalban 4y ago
      I think Yuval Noah Harari would agree with you. You may find his book Sapiens of interest. - The point you raise touches directly on the essence of my original comment (which should have been clearer): When we think of the value-system matrix of the 3 co-evolving continents of Europe, Africa, and Asia, the core commonality that is specially distinct from the value-system matrix that evolved in Americas is in regards to notions of property and nature 'husbandry'. Any vanguard explorers from the Eurasian civilisational matrix would bring with them the entirely alien notions of property and systemic cultivation of nature, and that would inevitably result in a confrontation of value systems, in which the technologically superior side would dominate.
neither_color 4y ago
The Russians did explore Alaska and interact with natives, but all they did was set up some missionary and trade posts. China explored Africa and then became isolationist. Japan was always isolationist until forced to open up by the US.
- wpietri 4y ago
  And not just Alaska, but California as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_North_America#California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_North_...
- eternalban 4y ago
  Russians had to pass through the Caucausus and Steppes before they reached Alaska. https://www.international.ucla.edu/apc/centralasia/article/139315 https://www.international.ucla.edu/apc/centralasia/article/1... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Nogai_Uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Nogai_Uprising https://fountainmagazine.com/1993/issue-2-april-june-1993/the-end-of-russian-genocide https://fountainmagazine.com/1993/issue-2-april-june-1993/th... (The Chinese are in the clear imo, so I parenthesized them.)

landemva 4y ago

"their languages" were recognized as unique and useful in 1950s. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/american-indian-code-talkers https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/american-indi...

joemazerino 4y ago

A nice cop out. Are you saying those on the reserves are generationally crippled beyond reproach? Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why?

kevingadd 4y ago
> Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why? The person you're replying to explained why: We did it to them on purpose to wipe them out.
- chasd00 4y ago
  > We did it to them on purpose to wipe them out. "we"? I wouldn't be so presumptuous.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    You did not. The society that you are a part of did systematically disassemble their society and slaughter any resistance. So “we” got our trains, oil and highways, and turned the Great Plains into one of the great breadbaskets of the world, at least for awhile. Unfortunately the depletion of the aquifers will leave those same plains a desert from an agricultural perspective in many of our lifetimes. Maybe when that land is worthless to society again the Sioux will get it back.
    - chasd00 4y ago
      Once again, you’re making a lot of assumptions about the person you’re replying to.
      - kevingadd 4y ago
        That or you're just choosing to unfavorably read the word "we" as if it refers to you specifically, instead of to the poster and their cultural, racial or national group, in order to avoid engaging with the substance of their post?

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago

Yes, why aren't these people self sufficient after we took away all their means of self sufficiency? It's a real big mystery isn't it.

kspacewalk2 4y ago
>Yes, why aren't these people self sufficient after we took away all their means of self sufficiency? This sounds very much like "racism of low expectations". "These people" are just as self-sufficient as any other group of modern people of similar socioeconomic background. It's been 100+ years since they were mistreated in any serious fashion. I come from eastern Europe and 150 years ago most of my ancestors were serfs, only a rung or two above chattel slaves on the ladder of human condition. If someone seriously suggested that well, what do you expect of these poor chaps, serfdom and all, I think I'd get quite upset. Just food for thought about how both your phrasing and implications of what you're saying might seem to people who aren't from your background.
- xyzelement 4y ago
  This is exactly it. Many peoples suffered extremely bad histories (Jews, Armenians, Chinese under Communism etc) and rise to overcome it in modern day. History is not fair but your actions yesterday determine your life today and your actions today determine your future. It is extremely damaging to sustain this culture of of course your life is shit because of what happened hundreds of years ago, nothing you can do
  - ethanbond 4y ago
    "100 years ago" is a weird way to describe "ongoing harm as recently as... earlier this year." https://www.npr.org/2022/02/18/1081872135/native-americans-protest-proposed-copper-mine-in-arizona https://www.npr.org/2022/02/18/1081872135/native-americans-p... Or the US government's uranium mining on Navajo land continuing to poison people today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_and_the_Navajo_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_and_the_Navajo_...