4 ms·

Exactly. It’s really this simple. The American rights inability to reconcile their love of “free speech at all time for everyone” with “businesses have the righ

by joxel 4y ago

Exactly. It’s really this simple. The American rights inability to reconcile their love of “free speech at all time for everyone” with “businesses have the right to refuse to associate with anyone they don’t like regardless of anti discrimination laws” is probably the front cover for American Hypocrisy.

GeekyBear 4y ago
You think the ACLU in the 70's was staffed by people on the right? Has everyone forgotten that America used to do things like imprison anti-war protestors? You fight for free speech for everyone because you may find that you are the person being targeted by the state for unpopular speech.
- sixQuarks 4y ago
  >Has everyone forgotten that America used to do things like imprison anti-war protestors? Basically yes. The left has now become the war party, it’s the right that has more anti-war protestors so it’s totally cool to censor them now.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Both parties are very much so the war party. If you're saying the left supports war bc Ukraine that is really tough to swallow. There was not a conflict under trump, but it is not hard to find tweets from him celebrating our military capability. Plenty of conservative politicians in the last eight years have statements of "war mongering" if you want to call it that.
    - sixQuarks 4y ago
      I don't know why Ukraine is a tough pill to swallow, the US has no interest in a proxy war with Russia, no matter what the mainstream media tells you. The left fully supports this to the tune of $100 billion so far and counting. $100 billion that could be used to build up our own infrastructure, combat homelessness and mental illness, hire more teachers, etc.
      - roflyear 4y ago
        We all have opinions, but seems that it is in the best interests of the US to support Ukraine.
        sixQuarks 4y ago
        The main reasons I've heard for this is that we are weakening one of our main enemies for a measly $100 billion and counting, without having to put boots on the ground. Another is that we should support democracies everywhere. This coming from the super power that has meddled with other countries and overthrown more democratically elected governments than any other. These are really BS reasons. Why do you feel it is in the best interest of the US? Especially considering that Ukraine is way more important to Russia than it is to the West, they are willing to fight tooth and nail for it, and possibly risk nuclear war. Is it really worth it?
        joxel 4y ago
        No use arguing with someone who doesn't understand the geopolitical ramifications of a Putin-entrenched Ukraine.
        sixQuarks 4y ago
        typical
        roflyear 4y ago
        Typical of what?
        roflyear 4y ago
        No offense, but it is a really unnuanced situation, so I feel that your "either or" statements are really framing the conversation poorly. It doesn't have to be either or, multiple of these arguments can apply or partially apply. > Why do you feel it is in the best interest of the US? I mostly agree with the state department, their statement can be found here: https://www.state.gov/united-with-ukraine/ https://www.state.gov/united-with-ukraine/ To summarize what I think is important: - We should support sovereignty, as you said. As the US should be against slavery today though they were for it in the past, poor decisions don't make you a hypocrite when you take the correct course of action in the future. - Ukraine is a somewhat ally of the US, though not in NATO. You support your allies. - A weaker Russia is good for the US, especially a weaker Putin. Putin and Russia are not neutral with their actions against the US. - Appeasement doesn't work. You may be correct that Ukraine is more important to Russia than Ukraine is to the west, but it was the same with Poland and Germany during WW2. Things change, but appeasement doesn't work. And before you say that was a long time ago, appeasement already did not work with Russia with Crimea. - The US did win the cold war. The soviet union failed. This was much due to the same tactics being used today with Ukraine: containment and deterrence. - Not good to encourage countries to invade each other.
- joxel 4y ago
  The cognitive dissonance of this reply is astounding. Do you really not understand the difference between free speech and forcing people to platform views they don't want to? Why does your cohort want to force MIT to allow Nazis to march through their campus, but not force a baker to bake a cake for a gay couple? See my previous comment on why.
  - AngriestLettuce 4y ago
    > Why does your cohort want to force MIT to allow Nazis to march through their campus, but not force a baker to bake a cake for a gay couple? Compelled action, versus compelled inaction. One requires you to force someone to do labour to further a cause they disagree with, the other requires you to stand aside and not physically prevent people from expressing themselves the way they want. Seems pretty clear cut and easy if you ask me.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > Why does your cohort want to force MIT to allow Nazis to march through their campus, but not force a baker to bake a cake for a gay couple Honestly, there are many possible reasons to justify making such distinctions. The most obvious is that campuses are explicitly intended to be venues for free speech and debate among diverse views, while a bake shop is intended as a venue for the free expression of only the baker.
- roflyear 4y ago
  This dude didn't say left or right. You need to remove your blinders my friend.
  - GeekyBear 4y ago
    > This dude didn't say left or right. "The American right's inability"
    - roflyear 4y ago
      Wow, I read that completely wrong. Apologies. Wish I could delete the comment.
chiefalchemist 4y ago
To clarify, free speech !== discrimination The argument is, as I understand it, self-expression even in the form of discrimination is protected. If it's not, then that leaves 1A venerable. The foundation left by the Founders is complicated. Yes, sometimes that looks like hypocrisy. Similar is the left's anti-gun / pro-abortion stances.
- joxel 4y ago
  Wait, you think anti-gun and pro abortion aren’t logically consistent? Is it because you erroneously believe embryos are people?

by joxel 4y ago

GeekyBear 4y ago

You think the ACLU in the 70's was staffed by people on the right? Has everyone forgotten that America used to do things like imprison anti-war protestors? You fight for free speech for everyone because you may find that you are the person being targeted by the state for unpopular speech.

sixQuarks 4y ago
>Has everyone forgotten that America used to do things like imprison anti-war protestors? Basically yes. The left has now become the war party, it’s the right that has more anti-war protestors so it’s totally cool to censor them now.
- roflyear 4y ago
  Both parties are very much so the war party. If you're saying the left supports war bc Ukraine that is really tough to swallow. There was not a conflict under trump, but it is not hard to find tweets from him celebrating our military capability. Plenty of conservative politicians in the last eight years have statements of "war mongering" if you want to call it that.
  - sixQuarks 4y ago
    I don't know why Ukraine is a tough pill to swallow, the US has no interest in a proxy war with Russia, no matter what the mainstream media tells you. The left fully supports this to the tune of $100 billion so far and counting. $100 billion that could be used to build up our own infrastructure, combat homelessness and mental illness, hire more teachers, etc.
    - roflyear 4y ago
      We all have opinions, but seems that it is in the best interests of the US to support Ukraine.
      - sixQuarks 4y ago
        The main reasons I've heard for this is that we are weakening one of our main enemies for a measly $100 billion and counting, without having to put boots on the ground. Another is that we should support democracies everywhere. This coming from the super power that has meddled with other countries and overthrown more democratically elected governments than any other. These are really BS reasons. Why do you feel it is in the best interest of the US? Especially considering that Ukraine is way more important to Russia than it is to the West, they are willing to fight tooth and nail for it, and possibly risk nuclear war. Is it really worth it?
        joxel 4y ago
        No use arguing with someone who doesn't understand the geopolitical ramifications of a Putin-entrenched Ukraine.
        sixQuarks 4y ago
        typical
        roflyear 4y ago
        Typical of what?
        roflyear 4y ago
        No offense, but it is a really unnuanced situation, so I feel that your "either or" statements are really framing the conversation poorly. It doesn't have to be either or, multiple of these arguments can apply or partially apply. > Why do you feel it is in the best interest of the US? I mostly agree with the state department, their statement can be found here: https://www.state.gov/united-with-ukraine/ https://www.state.gov/united-with-ukraine/ To summarize what I think is important: - We should support sovereignty, as you said. As the US should be against slavery today though they were for it in the past, poor decisions don't make you a hypocrite when you take the correct course of action in the future. - Ukraine is a somewhat ally of the US, though not in NATO. You support your allies. - A weaker Russia is good for the US, especially a weaker Putin. Putin and Russia are not neutral with their actions against the US. - Appeasement doesn't work. You may be correct that Ukraine is more important to Russia than Ukraine is to the west, but it was the same with Poland and Germany during WW2. Things change, but appeasement doesn't work. And before you say that was a long time ago, appeasement already did not work with Russia with Crimea. - The US did win the cold war. The soviet union failed. This was much due to the same tactics being used today with Ukraine: containment and deterrence. - Not good to encourage countries to invade each other.
joxel 4y ago
The cognitive dissonance of this reply is astounding. Do you really not understand the difference between free speech and forcing people to platform views they don't want to? Why does your cohort want to force MIT to allow Nazis to march through their campus, but not force a baker to bake a cake for a gay couple? See my previous comment on why.
- AngriestLettuce 4y ago
  > Why does your cohort want to force MIT to allow Nazis to march through their campus, but not force a baker to bake a cake for a gay couple? Compelled action, versus compelled inaction. One requires you to force someone to do labour to further a cause they disagree with, the other requires you to stand aside and not physically prevent people from expressing themselves the way they want. Seems pretty clear cut and easy if you ask me.
- naasking 4y ago
  > Why does your cohort want to force MIT to allow Nazis to march through their campus, but not force a baker to bake a cake for a gay couple Honestly, there are many possible reasons to justify making such distinctions. The most obvious is that campuses are explicitly intended to be venues for free speech and debate among diverse views, while a bake shop is intended as a venue for the free expression of only the baker.
roflyear 4y ago
This dude didn't say left or right. You need to remove your blinders my friend.
- GeekyBear 4y ago
  > This dude didn't say left or right. "The American right's inability"
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Wow, I read that completely wrong. Apologies. Wish I could delete the comment.

chiefalchemist 4y ago

To clarify, free speech !== discrimination The argument is, as I understand it, self-expression even in the form of discrimination is protected. If it's not, then that leaves 1A venerable. The foundation left by the Founders is complicated. Yes, sometimes that looks like hypocrisy. Similar is the left's anti-gun / pro-abortion stances.

joxel 4y ago
Wait, you think anti-gun and pro abortion aren’t logically consistent? Is it because you erroneously believe embryos are people?