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> As some one who lives under a blasphemy culture, I think American greatly take for granted their freedoms of speech, and it boggles me that this is not a corn

by Matl 4y ago

> As some one who lives under a blasphemy culture, I think American greatly take for granted their freedoms of speech, and it boggles me that this is not a corner stone of the American Left. I am not an American, but my own observation as a leftist of the situation there is that there's what I'd call the 'performative left' and the 'real/old school left' if you will with the second camp being mainly about economic issues, class solidarity, foreign policy, freedom of expression etc. (say Chomsky, Richard Wolf), but much smaller than the performative left, (student activists trying to deplatform etc.), which is the one the right loves because they give them so much material to work with. That part of the right on the other hand claims to be pro free speech but ends up not behaving anything like it, aka Elon Musk.

portaPoopy 4y ago
Boycott was long seen as a necessary behavior to preserve democracy and free markets; flush old ideas. It’s free agency; can’t force people to do business with someone or believe in their figurative identity. “Cancel culture” is boycott rebranded as a pejorative, to make the public mean and nasty for not wanting to heap figurative privilege on particular people anymore. Those shrieking loudest about the loss of speech in the US are usually those who are privileged at the expense of speech that would improve conditions for others (do not speak of sick days for railroad staff, or making Walmart pay worker benefits to get their employees off social programs!) Simple propaganda techniques are being leveraged to relabel free speech that suggests rethinking evolving society. Universities that are heavily dependent on government protections to exist fear change. Unless research requires exotic hardware (nuclear reactor or something) there’s little reason to provide special accommodations for data mining academics that make up the majority of university work these days. They can go freely speak in a park, or video chat about their findings. What’s funny is if you bring up how bloated with middle management unis have become you’re anti-intellectual too. When a corporation, celebrity, or institution are complaining about being oppressed as they rely on “essential workers” who are effectively not allowed to speak out of line, I laugh.
- notSupplied 4y ago
  No, I don’t think the analogy works. People have a freedom of who they associate with and do business with: Boycott is when you decide not to spend your money someplace because you don’t agree with them. You’re exercising your freedom of association. Cancellation is when a 3rd party demands that a employee/employer sever their relationship because the 3rd party disapproves of the employee. Here, a 3rd party is imposing on two other parties’ freedom of association. Also, the substance of the speech is quite different: - “You are wrong, and here are the reasons why” is debate. - “You are wrong, and you should become unemployable” is cancellation. Cancellation is technically speech, but it is speech that is focused on imposing a high cost on other speech. Talk about the “paradox of intolerance” argument that the modern left loves to use.
- chrismcb 4y ago
  Cancel culture is not boycotting. At least not what most people consider boycotting. Boycotting usually there's to not giving money to a company to try to get the company to change their ways (yes you could argue it is a way to try and cancel the company) cancel culture is trying to get someone fired, or get their event, contact, whatever cancelled. Because you don't like them. It isn't the same thing. Boycotting is telling people "please don't prize company x" while cancellation is going above that person and asking them to remove the person. Totally different concepts. And it is mean and nasty, it is basically giving someone a death sentence for something they may not have even done. And of course you have every right to ask for someone to be cancelled. But you should use that right judicially. And make sure the punishment fits the crime.
- fennecfoxy 4y ago
  Cancel culture == swatting. Same thing, abusing the system to get what they see as justice. Heavy cancellation usually involves stretching the truth or outright lies; an employer is very likely to drop a (male) employee based on an anonymous sexual assault tip for example, even if it turns out to be unsubstantiated depending on how high profile the employee/business is sometimes they'd rather play it safe & fire them anyway. As easy as it is for one of the many Indian scam centers to take your grandmothers money, it is just as easy for a wide-eyed innocent figure to tell you lies about someone and have you believe them. I don't think most people realise how many biases we all carry.
Dalewyn 4y ago
>what I'd call the 'performative left' and the 'real/old school left' What you're referring to are known more commonly as Modern Liberalism and Classical Liberalism, respectively. Modern Liberalism is, well, the Left: Control of speech, adherence of expression, safe spaces, equal results rather than equal opportunity, wealth redistribution, controlled markets, etc. Classical Liberalism is liberalism as it used to mean originally: Free speech, free expression, free markets, equal opportunity, individual responsibility, etc. It probably doesn't need to be said that Classical Liberalism is almost never associated with the Left. Also remember: The word "liberal" and name "liberalism" are derived from the Latin word "liber", from which we also get words such as "liberty". Liberalism is about freedom, something that the Left staunchly argues against.
- pnf 4y ago
  Despite its etymology, liberalism is not primarily about freedom, it is about individualism. This is what connects "classical" and "modern" liberalism. Freedoms and so-called "human rights" shake out of this foundational idea that the individual is sovereign.
- tokai 4y ago
  As a non-American calling liberalism 'left' is so weird. I grew up with the word liberal being a slur for right-winger. But even in an US context painting it as classic vs modern liberalism is wrong. Chomsky is definitely not a liberal, and the US obsession of collapsing every position to the left of conservatism into liberalism is dangerously reductive, and limits the answers for political questions immensely.
  - ziml77 4y ago
    As an American I also find it weird. There’s multiple axes getting reduced to just one. It’s impossible to have any proper discussions about political positions of people when you’re collapsing it down and then leaving it up to the reader to decide how they want to split it back out in their heads.
- Matl 4y ago
  I said I am not American for a reason, I am also familiar with my terms and what you write is somewhat a modern, American-centric distortion of terms as well. You listed what seem like talking points in the so called 'culture war' that I am not interested in fighting as it is very much an American phenomenon, (with some spillover) that in the end doesn't serve interests of anyone but the few profiting off of being spokepersons for one side or the other. It's very much a modern distortion that leftism doesn't stand for free speech and that classical liberals, (in your context, I understand them to mean right-leaning libertarians), are somehow the only ones that do. The left intellectuals I am familiar with are very much pro free speech, equal opportunity, (not outcome etc). As for markets, I very much question if such a thing as a free market could ever truly exist, (even without state interference), and if it's such a good thing but that's neither here nor there. Point is, the left is very diverse, not a single box you can put everything you don't like the sound of in, label it 'the left' and be done with it. Same thing as not everyone on the right being a 'Nazi' if you will.
pydry 4y ago
I dont think it's so much that the right likes them more. I think it's mainly that the non performative left can basically only really get noticed by appearing on, say, PressTV or RT. They dont tend to own or control TV stations and the people who do control popular "left" media megaphones trend neoliberal and are overtly hostile towards them. Hence why there's no hike in the minimum wage or single payer healthcare still but you can pick your pronouns at work now :/
- DoctorOW 4y ago
  I think your example inadvertently proves why there is no left representation in America at all. Picking pronouns isn't some policy that was signed into law, it's just that the far right wants to make it illegal. The difference lies in the political figures touted as "left" in America have no left leaning policies, just watered down versions of the American right's agenda.
  - pydry 4y ago
    Getting the working class to fight over performative wedge issues to divide and disempower them is entirely deliberate. That is, until Russian bots grab $500,000 of Facebook ads and a crowbar and join in the fun.
    - DoctorOW 4y ago
      Ideally the growing resentment against capitalism and push for strong unions takes off even further. Blaming whatever minority is at best a band-aid on the gaping holes in the ruling class's narrative.
  - sixQuarks 4y ago
    The right does not want to make the picking of pronouns illegal. Where did you get that? Nobody cares what annyone identifies as. The right’s position is that you are free to identify however you wish, but you still have to abide by certain things based on your biological birth when it directly affects other people. Right or wrong, don’t create a straw man.
sixQuarks 4y ago
You were making sense until your Musk hatred came out. Name someone who is doing more for free speech right now than Musk?
- wolverine876 4y ago
  Musk supports speech that Musk likes; that isn't freedom. For example, Musk is against speech that criticizes Twitter or Elon; some are intimidated and harassed (e.g., called pedophiles), and some are silenced (or 'canceled') including journalists and others.
- biorach 4y ago
  Musk's free speech crusade is in the process of being ambushed by reality.
  - sixQuarks 4y ago
    How so?
twic 4y ago
I think you are spot on, but I have one small quibble. You use the word "performative" to mean something like "just for show", or "primarily concerned with symbols". Performative is a technical term from linguistics which means something quite different (and interesting!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance For some reason, that word has become widely used for your meaning. But I think it's not the right term! We should say something like "theatrical", as in security theatre. As an aside, I think a Marxist would describe the divide as idealism vs materialism (both technical terms in Marxism).
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  > We should say something like "theatrical", as in security theatre. How about "hypocrite"? If I understand correctly, in Greek, that originally meant "actor". So when Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites, he was saying that their religion was just theater - it was just for show.

by Matl 4y ago

portaPoopy 4y ago

Boycott was long seen as a necessary behavior to preserve democracy and free markets; flush old ideas. It’s free agency; can’t force people to do business with someone or believe in their figurative identity. “Cancel culture” is boycott rebranded as a pejorative, to make the public mean and nasty for not wanting to heap figurative privilege on particular people anymore. Those shrieking loudest about the loss of speech in the US are usually those who are privileged at the expense of speech that would improve conditions for others (do not speak of sick days for railroad staff, or making Walmart pay worker benefits to get their employees off social programs!) Simple propaganda techniques are being leveraged to relabel free speech that suggests rethinking evolving society. Universities that are heavily dependent on government protections to exist fear change. Unless research requires exotic hardware (nuclear reactor or something) there’s little reason to provide special accommodations for data mining academics that make up the majority of university work these days. They can go freely speak in a park, or video chat about their findings. What’s funny is if you bring up how bloated with middle management unis have become you’re anti-intellectual too. When a corporation, celebrity, or institution are complaining about being oppressed as they rely on “essential workers” who are effectively not allowed to speak out of line, I laugh.

notSupplied 4y ago
No, I don’t think the analogy works. People have a freedom of who they associate with and do business with: Boycott is when you decide not to spend your money someplace because you don’t agree with them. You’re exercising your freedom of association. Cancellation is when a 3rd party demands that a employee/employer sever their relationship because the 3rd party disapproves of the employee. Here, a 3rd party is imposing on two other parties’ freedom of association. Also, the substance of the speech is quite different: - “You are wrong, and here are the reasons why” is debate. - “You are wrong, and you should become unemployable” is cancellation. Cancellation is technically speech, but it is speech that is focused on imposing a high cost on other speech. Talk about the “paradox of intolerance” argument that the modern left loves to use.
chrismcb 4y ago
Cancel culture is not boycotting. At least not what most people consider boycotting. Boycotting usually there's to not giving money to a company to try to get the company to change their ways (yes you could argue it is a way to try and cancel the company) cancel culture is trying to get someone fired, or get their event, contact, whatever cancelled. Because you don't like them. It isn't the same thing. Boycotting is telling people "please don't prize company x" while cancellation is going above that person and asking them to remove the person. Totally different concepts. And it is mean and nasty, it is basically giving someone a death sentence for something they may not have even done. And of course you have every right to ask for someone to be cancelled. But you should use that right judicially. And make sure the punishment fits the crime.
fennecfoxy 4y ago
Cancel culture == swatting. Same thing, abusing the system to get what they see as justice. Heavy cancellation usually involves stretching the truth or outright lies; an employer is very likely to drop a (male) employee based on an anonymous sexual assault tip for example, even if it turns out to be unsubstantiated depending on how high profile the employee/business is sometimes they'd rather play it safe & fire them anyway. As easy as it is for one of the many Indian scam centers to take your grandmothers money, it is just as easy for a wide-eyed innocent figure to tell you lies about someone and have you believe them. I don't think most people realise how many biases we all carry.

Dalewyn 4y ago

>what I'd call the 'performative left' and the 'real/old school left' What you're referring to are known more commonly as Modern Liberalism and Classical Liberalism, respectively. Modern Liberalism is, well, the Left: Control of speech, adherence of expression, safe spaces, equal results rather than equal opportunity, wealth redistribution, controlled markets, etc. Classical Liberalism is liberalism as it used to mean originally: Free speech, free expression, free markets, equal opportunity, individual responsibility, etc. It probably doesn't need to be said that Classical Liberalism is almost never associated with the Left. Also remember: The word "liberal" and name "liberalism" are derived from the Latin word "liber", from which we also get words such as "liberty". Liberalism is about freedom, something that the Left staunchly argues against.

pnf 4y ago
Despite its etymology, liberalism is not primarily about freedom, it is about individualism. This is what connects "classical" and "modern" liberalism. Freedoms and so-called "human rights" shake out of this foundational idea that the individual is sovereign.
tokai 4y ago
As a non-American calling liberalism 'left' is so weird. I grew up with the word liberal being a slur for right-winger. But even in an US context painting it as classic vs modern liberalism is wrong. Chomsky is definitely not a liberal, and the US obsession of collapsing every position to the left of conservatism into liberalism is dangerously reductive, and limits the answers for political questions immensely.
- ziml77 4y ago
  As an American I also find it weird. There’s multiple axes getting reduced to just one. It’s impossible to have any proper discussions about political positions of people when you’re collapsing it down and then leaving it up to the reader to decide how they want to split it back out in their heads.
Matl 4y ago
I said I am not American for a reason, I am also familiar with my terms and what you write is somewhat a modern, American-centric distortion of terms as well. You listed what seem like talking points in the so called 'culture war' that I am not interested in fighting as it is very much an American phenomenon, (with some spillover) that in the end doesn't serve interests of anyone but the few profiting off of being spokepersons for one side or the other. It's very much a modern distortion that leftism doesn't stand for free speech and that classical liberals, (in your context, I understand them to mean right-leaning libertarians), are somehow the only ones that do. The left intellectuals I am familiar with are very much pro free speech, equal opportunity, (not outcome etc). As for markets, I very much question if such a thing as a free market could ever truly exist, (even without state interference), and if it's such a good thing but that's neither here nor there. Point is, the left is very diverse, not a single box you can put everything you don't like the sound of in, label it 'the left' and be done with it. Same thing as not everyone on the right being a 'Nazi' if you will.

pydry 4y ago

I dont think it's so much that the right likes them more. I think it's mainly that the non performative left can basically only really get noticed by appearing on, say, PressTV or RT. They dont tend to own or control TV stations and the people who do control popular "left" media megaphones trend neoliberal and are overtly hostile towards them. Hence why there's no hike in the minimum wage or single payer healthcare still but you can pick your pronouns at work now :/

DoctorOW 4y ago
I think your example inadvertently proves why there is no left representation in America at all. Picking pronouns isn't some policy that was signed into law, it's just that the far right wants to make it illegal. The difference lies in the political figures touted as "left" in America have no left leaning policies, just watered down versions of the American right's agenda.
- pydry 4y ago
  Getting the working class to fight over performative wedge issues to divide and disempower them is entirely deliberate. That is, until Russian bots grab $500,000 of Facebook ads and a crowbar and join in the fun.
  - DoctorOW 4y ago
    Ideally the growing resentment against capitalism and push for strong unions takes off even further. Blaming whatever minority is at best a band-aid on the gaping holes in the ruling class's narrative.
- sixQuarks 4y ago
  The right does not want to make the picking of pronouns illegal. Where did you get that? Nobody cares what annyone identifies as. The right’s position is that you are free to identify however you wish, but you still have to abide by certain things based on your biological birth when it directly affects other people. Right or wrong, don’t create a straw man.

sixQuarks 4y ago

You were making sense until your Musk hatred came out. Name someone who is doing more for free speech right now than Musk?

wolverine876 4y ago
Musk supports speech that Musk likes; that isn't freedom. For example, Musk is against speech that criticizes Twitter or Elon; some are intimidated and harassed (e.g., called pedophiles), and some are silenced (or 'canceled') including journalists and others.
biorach 4y ago
Musk's free speech crusade is in the process of being ambushed by reality.
- sixQuarks 4y ago
  How so?

twic 4y ago

I think you are spot on, but I have one small quibble. You use the word "performative" to mean something like "just for show", or "primarily concerned with symbols". Performative is a technical term from linguistics which means something quite different (and interesting!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance For some reason, that word has become widely used for your meaning. But I think it's not the right term! We should say something like "theatrical", as in security theatre. As an aside, I think a Marxist would describe the divide as idealism vs materialism (both technical terms in Marxism).

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
> We should say something like "theatrical", as in security theatre. How about "hypocrite"? If I understand correctly, in Greek, that originally meant "actor". So when Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites, he was saying that their religion was just theater - it was just for show.