7 ms·

>low income countries have not been "overwhelmed" by Covid India was completely devastated by COVID-19. One reason was that India failed to focus their care o

>low income countries have not been "overwhelmed" by Covid India was completely devastated by COVID-19. One reason was that India failed to focus their care on actually vulnerable elderly people and they instead had 30-something dudes demanding intensive care and taking up oxygen cylinders for themselves and their families.

fancybouncy 4y ago
Isn't most of India's population very young (half of it is under 15)? I'm skeptical that the "vulnerable elderly people" had much impact on India's covid story. Either way, the elderly have already lived their life, isn't it better to focus on the younger people when a choice must be made?
- noduerme 4y ago
  If you had two hard drives and had to destroy one, without knowing what was on them, only how much information they each contained... wouldn't you keep the one with more stored in its memory?
  - Kwpolska 4y ago
    You’re focusing on the memories and experiences of a person, but are completely ignoring the potential to grow, develop, and do things - something that 30-year-olds have, and 90-year-olds pretty much don’t.
    - noduerme 4y ago
      But it only takes 30 years to make a 30 year old. They're at least 3x more replaceable than 90 year olds. [edit] also, do things for whom? To what end if not to build experience?
      - abofh 4y ago
        Alternatively, most 30 year olds have 30 more years to contribute to society. Most 90 year olds do not.
        archagon 4y ago
        Why is “ability to contribute to society” a factor in considering who to save? Down that path lies euthanasia of the disabled and mentally ill.
        fancybouncy 4y ago
        and this is bad how?
  - headsoup 4y ago
    Yeah it definitely makes sense to sacrifice the children for the elderly, I mean what good are the kids of tomorrow without the old of today. In other words I'm saying that's a silly analogy
    - noduerme 4y ago
      >> what good are the kids of tomorrow without the old of today Worshipping youth in its ignorance and speed while discarding the wisdom of elders is called fascism. The right question would be what can civilization hope to achieve besides a reversion to barbarism and "Lord of the Flies" if it doesn't hold its oldest, most vulnerable and most wise members, and their experience, in the highest regard? The young have always been proud and disposable. And if they don't die young, they get old. Then maybe they have something more interesting to say.
      - headsoup 4y ago
        Wow straight to the fascism argument, nice. I fail to see at all how sacrificing the young and healthy for the old and ill is not fascism, but sacrificing the old and ill for the young is? Isn't a component (not all...) of fascism any sacrifice 'for the good of the nation.' Didn't realise it was so specific. You're putting the wrong lens on this. My argument is that we are to deliberately harm the young to possibly protect the old and ill (which in this case isn't so as the vaccines don't guarantee prevention), rather than leaving them alone in the hope of protecting the old and ill as-is. Not 'let the old die for the young.'
- joshuahedlund 4y ago
  When you have 1.4 billion people, even a lower proportion of older folks is a huge number. Including a lot lost “only” in their 50’s and 60’s.
ramraj07 4y ago
I agree that india bungled their Covid response royally (though not unexpectedly for me) but what evidence do you have that it was all because of 30-somethings hogging the oxygen cylinders. I myself predicted there will be a run on oxygen concentrators and had one rented for my mom in case. But when delta hit I couldn’t in good conscience keep it and returned it back to the hospital. I know many rich families did not do that and hoarded cylinders and concentrators like this when people were dying. However I’m not convinced that this was the reason for the massive suffering caused in india. It’s just another facet of the cruelty that happened during this time.
chrisco255 4y ago
India suffered a 28% increase in excessive deaths from 2020-2021: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.30.21264376v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.30.21264376v... In line with many first world countries: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?country=OWID_WRL~CHN~IND~USA~IDN~BRA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-... Notably, sub-Saharan Africa did not suffer greatly from Covid.
- noduerme 4y ago
  >> Notably, sub-Saharan Africa did not suffer greatly from Covid. Neither did China. How stunning. It must be due to their fantastic public health systems.
  - headsoup 4y ago
    Ah, it's a conspiracy when these countries 'do well' but everything you are told in the West is true huh?
    - noduerme 4y ago
      Even if everything stated in western journalism were complete lies, I don't see how that would make the reporting out of autocratic dictatorships any truer.
      - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
        Do you know anyone in China? Just ask them what life was like for most of zero-CoVID. Most people didn't even know a single person who had gotten infected. You don't have to arbitrarily trust some authority. Everyone in the country could see from their own experience that spread of the virus really was being effectively controlled.
      - headsoup 4y ago
        Depends if you believe everything that comes out of a dictatorship is a lie. How untrue is it? We know it's under-reported, but who do you trust to find the truth? The question is, do you think it is easier or harder to spot the lies of Western journalism, and what problems does that cause in forming a base to judge others?
chiefalchemist 4y ago
It sounds more like India was devestated by selfishness and misguided priorities. Covid just happened to be there to take the blame.

fancybouncy 4y ago

Isn't most of India's population very young (half of it is under 15)? I'm skeptical that the "vulnerable elderly people" had much impact on India's covid story. Either way, the elderly have already lived their life, isn't it better to focus on the younger people when a choice must be made?

noduerme 4y ago
If you had two hard drives and had to destroy one, without knowing what was on them, only how much information they each contained... wouldn't you keep the one with more stored in its memory?
- Kwpolska 4y ago
  You’re focusing on the memories and experiences of a person, but are completely ignoring the potential to grow, develop, and do things - something that 30-year-olds have, and 90-year-olds pretty much don’t.
  - noduerme 4y ago
    But it only takes 30 years to make a 30 year old. They're at least 3x more replaceable than 90 year olds. [edit] also, do things for whom? To what end if not to build experience?
    - abofh 4y ago
      Alternatively, most 30 year olds have 30 more years to contribute to society. Most 90 year olds do not.
      - archagon 4y ago
        Why is “ability to contribute to society” a factor in considering who to save? Down that path lies euthanasia of the disabled and mentally ill.
        fancybouncy 4y ago
        and this is bad how?
- headsoup 4y ago
  Yeah it definitely makes sense to sacrifice the children for the elderly, I mean what good are the kids of tomorrow without the old of today. In other words I'm saying that's a silly analogy
  - noduerme 4y ago
    >> what good are the kids of tomorrow without the old of today Worshipping youth in its ignorance and speed while discarding the wisdom of elders is called fascism. The right question would be what can civilization hope to achieve besides a reversion to barbarism and "Lord of the Flies" if it doesn't hold its oldest, most vulnerable and most wise members, and their experience, in the highest regard? The young have always been proud and disposable. And if they don't die young, they get old. Then maybe they have something more interesting to say.
    - headsoup 4y ago
      Wow straight to the fascism argument, nice. I fail to see at all how sacrificing the young and healthy for the old and ill is not fascism, but sacrificing the old and ill for the young is? Isn't a component (not all...) of fascism any sacrifice 'for the good of the nation.' Didn't realise it was so specific. You're putting the wrong lens on this. My argument is that we are to deliberately harm the young to possibly protect the old and ill (which in this case isn't so as the vaccines don't guarantee prevention), rather than leaving them alone in the hope of protecting the old and ill as-is. Not 'let the old die for the young.'
joshuahedlund 4y ago
When you have 1.4 billion people, even a lower proportion of older folks is a huge number. Including a lot lost “only” in their 50’s and 60’s.

ramraj07 4y ago

I agree that india bungled their Covid response royally (though not unexpectedly for me) but what evidence do you have that it was all because of 30-somethings hogging the oxygen cylinders. I myself predicted there will be a run on oxygen concentrators and had one rented for my mom in case. But when delta hit I couldn’t in good conscience keep it and returned it back to the hospital. I know many rich families did not do that and hoarded cylinders and concentrators like this when people were dying. However I’m not convinced that this was the reason for the massive suffering caused in india. It’s just another facet of the cruelty that happened during this time.

chrisco255 4y ago

India suffered a 28% increase in excessive deaths from 2020-2021: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.30.21264376v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.30.21264376v... In line with many first world countries: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?country=OWID_WRL~CHN~IND~USA~IDN~BRA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-... Notably, sub-Saharan Africa did not suffer greatly from Covid.

noduerme 4y ago
>> Notably, sub-Saharan Africa did not suffer greatly from Covid. Neither did China. How stunning. It must be due to their fantastic public health systems.
- headsoup 4y ago
  Ah, it's a conspiracy when these countries 'do well' but everything you are told in the West is true huh?
  - noduerme 4y ago
    Even if everything stated in western journalism were complete lies, I don't see how that would make the reporting out of autocratic dictatorships any truer.
    - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
      Do you know anyone in China? Just ask them what life was like for most of zero-CoVID. Most people didn't even know a single person who had gotten infected. You don't have to arbitrarily trust some authority. Everyone in the country could see from their own experience that spread of the virus really was being effectively controlled.
    - headsoup 4y ago
      Depends if you believe everything that comes out of a dictatorship is a lie. How untrue is it? We know it's under-reported, but who do you trust to find the truth? The question is, do you think it is easier or harder to spot the lies of Western journalism, and what problems does that cause in forming a base to judge others?

chiefalchemist 4y ago

It sounds more like India was devestated by selfishness and misguided priorities. Covid just happened to be there to take the blame.