7 ms·

I thought (but don't have a source for this right now) that an additional factor was that the vaccine must accidentally have entered the bloodstream, as opposed

I thought (but don't have a source for this right now) that an additional factor was that the vaccine must accidentally have entered the bloodstream, as opposed to only the muscle (i.e. incorrect administration). This isn't mentioned by the article, so was this not the case?

lamontcg 4y ago
That was only ever speculation, it was not the case. The association with middle aged women was not due to smaller muscles, but due to autoimmunity.
andrewflnr 4y ago
For AstraZeneca? I think I've heard that for the mRNA ones...
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  It can and should happen for any intra-muscular vaccination in similar (very low) rates - it's a medical error when the vaccine is administered (accidentally hitting a small vein inside the muscle), not some property of the vaccine itself.
  - andrewflnr 4y ago
    Sure, the question isn't so much whether it happens but whether it's associated with severe side effects.
sendfoods 4y ago
Are you referring to aspiration vs intravenous injection? I am not a medical doctor, but John Campbell and his presentation of data from Denmark convinced me to ask for aspirated admission of my dose(s). Can't find the presentation rn, unfortunately, but some similar considerations are mentioned here [1] [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35320581/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35320581/
- johnchristopher 4y ago
  Oh, I saw a video in 2021 in which a retired doctor/uni. prof. explained AZ complications (it was someone from the UK) were most likely/could be related to how nurses handled the needle and where they stung it. Like, he was concerned about the lack of instructions given to vaccinating squad. I blacked this info out because it was too much of a yet another thing I had to watch for at the time on top of others but for my first booster I had a chat with the nurse about the dosage of the booster and... yeah... better check these kind of things out yourselves, things can go wrong really fast (and mark your legs and operation instructions on your body before going under the scalpel :). Edit: not sure if it's the video I watched but it's definitely the guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBaIRm4610o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBaIRm4610o
  - readthenotes1 4y ago
    very old dr told me he noticed the techs who gave him his shots failed to follow the best practice he was taught, which is to withdraw the plunger to see if you pull out any blood. If you draw any blood you have hit an artery and need to start over. His vax people just stuck it in and plunged, no testing.
    - jamiek88 4y ago
      Your very old doctor needs to know that hasn’t been done for twenty years. It’s silly theater. Like a lot of medicine was and is.
      - Slava_Propanei 4y ago
        [dead]
      - objetovoador 4y ago
        > It’s silly theater. Like a lot of medicine was and is. can you at least explain why it's "silly theater"?
    - pgalvin 4y ago
BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
when you start asking online commenters to disprove a theory you probably read from another online commenter you may want to re-evaluate how you're consuming information
- jjulius 4y ago
  >... you probably read from another online commenter... You are criticizing OP based on an evidence-less assumption that you have made about them.
  - chrisan 4y ago
    It is not a criticism that is so far off. You could take out the "probably" and replace with "maybe" - just have a look at this very page of comments and it shouldn't take you long to find wildly inaccurate statements or anecdotal -> conclusion type theories.
    - jjulius 4y ago
      You could do that, but HN guidelines ask us to assume, and post in, good faith. Blindly assuming/implying someone didn't get their source from some kind of trustworthy place and then giving them grief for it is not a good faith comment. And it discourages people from asking questions in the future. OP seems genuinely curious and open to whatever answers they might get. Why be a dick to them?
- headsoup 4y ago
  This of course assumes that other online commenters (or sources) apparently have no experience or credentials in providing the information. Way too much credentialism of late.
maxboone 4y ago
PF4 was already considered the culprit for a while, but formerly it was thought that negatively loaded DNA activated it. Incorrect administration is still a risk, but not systemic / wide enough for the clotting cases I guess. And, you'd (1) expect cases to go down over time and (2) see them in mRNA vaccines as well. So, no, PF4's been consensus for a while, this study gives a probable theory on why PF4 gets activated.
- krisoft 4y ago
  > negatively loaded DNA activated it What is a negatively loaded DNA?
fabian2k 4y ago
That's a theory that I've seen quite often online, but as far as I could tell there is no evidence at all for it. I also haven't seen this argued from any official sources. It's a plausible-sounding explanation, that has no data behind it as far as I can tell.
- z7 4y ago
  Detection of mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines in Human Breast Milk: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32998268 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32998268 Detection of spike protein in brain and heart (single case study): https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/10/10/1651 https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/10/10/1651 The larger question seems to be the biodistribution of the vaccine in general, not necessarily via bloodstream. From the first study: "We speculate that, following the vaccine administration, lipid nanoparticles containing the vaccine mRNA are carried to mammary glands via hematogenous and/or lymphatic routes."
  - briandon 4y ago
    Have you seen the Japanese Pfizer biodistribution study, which looked at where LNPs ended up in mice? https://www.docdroid.net/xq0Z8B0/pfizer-report-japanese-government-pdf https://www.docdroid.net/xq0Z8B0/pfizer-report-japanese-gove...
    - z7 4y ago
      No, hadn't seen that one! The 2021 consensus seems to be that the amounts detected are so minuscule that there is no cause for concern. I wonder if that's the whole story. I also wonder why there aren't more studies on this.
      - briandon 4y ago
        In the linked report, the organ distribution of the LNPs is given in a table that spans two pages (pages 16-17 of the PDF corresponding to pages 6-7 in the report's internal numbering). After 48 hours, only 24.6% of the lipids from the LNPs in the rodents' doses had remained at the injection site. The liver ended up with 16.2% and the spleen with slightly in excess of 1%. The remainder (nearly 60%) was widely distributed. The table has values for specific organs and tissues.

lamontcg 4y ago

That was only ever speculation, it was not the case. The association with middle aged women was not due to smaller muscles, but due to autoimmunity.

andrewflnr 4y ago

For AstraZeneca? I think I've heard that for the mRNA ones...

tsimionescu 4y ago
It can and should happen for any intra-muscular vaccination in similar (very low) rates - it's a medical error when the vaccine is administered (accidentally hitting a small vein inside the muscle), not some property of the vaccine itself.
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  Sure, the question isn't so much whether it happens but whether it's associated with severe side effects.

sendfoods 4y ago

Are you referring to aspiration vs intravenous injection? I am not a medical doctor, but John Campbell and his presentation of data from Denmark convinced me to ask for aspirated admission of my dose(s). Can't find the presentation rn, unfortunately, but some similar considerations are mentioned here [1] [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35320581/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35320581/

johnchristopher 4y ago
Oh, I saw a video in 2021 in which a retired doctor/uni. prof. explained AZ complications (it was someone from the UK) were most likely/could be related to how nurses handled the needle and where they stung it. Like, he was concerned about the lack of instructions given to vaccinating squad. I blacked this info out because it was too much of a yet another thing I had to watch for at the time on top of others but for my first booster I had a chat with the nurse about the dosage of the booster and... yeah... better check these kind of things out yourselves, things can go wrong really fast (and mark your legs and operation instructions on your body before going under the scalpel :). Edit: not sure if it's the video I watched but it's definitely the guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBaIRm4610o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBaIRm4610o
- readthenotes1 4y ago
  very old dr told me he noticed the techs who gave him his shots failed to follow the best practice he was taught, which is to withdraw the plunger to see if you pull out any blood. If you draw any blood you have hit an artery and need to start over. His vax people just stuck it in and plunged, no testing.
  - jamiek88 4y ago
    Your very old doctor needs to know that hasn’t been done for twenty years. It’s silly theater. Like a lot of medicine was and is.
    - Slava_Propanei 4y ago
      [dead]
    - objetovoador 4y ago
      > It’s silly theater. Like a lot of medicine was and is. can you at least explain why it's "silly theater"?
  - pgalvin 4y ago

BaculumMeumEst 4y ago

when you start asking online commenters to disprove a theory you probably read from another online commenter you may want to re-evaluate how you're consuming information

jjulius 4y ago
>... you probably read from another online commenter... You are criticizing OP based on an evidence-less assumption that you have made about them.
- chrisan 4y ago
  It is not a criticism that is so far off. You could take out the "probably" and replace with "maybe" - just have a look at this very page of comments and it shouldn't take you long to find wildly inaccurate statements or anecdotal -> conclusion type theories.
  - jjulius 4y ago
    You could do that, but HN guidelines ask us to assume, and post in, good faith. Blindly assuming/implying someone didn't get their source from some kind of trustworthy place and then giving them grief for it is not a good faith comment. And it discourages people from asking questions in the future. OP seems genuinely curious and open to whatever answers they might get. Why be a dick to them?
headsoup 4y ago
This of course assumes that other online commenters (or sources) apparently have no experience or credentials in providing the information. Way too much credentialism of late.

maxboone 4y ago

PF4 was already considered the culprit for a while, but formerly it was thought that negatively loaded DNA activated it. Incorrect administration is still a risk, but not systemic / wide enough for the clotting cases I guess. And, you'd (1) expect cases to go down over time and (2) see them in mRNA vaccines as well. So, no, PF4's been consensus for a while, this study gives a probable theory on why PF4 gets activated.

krisoft 4y ago
> negatively loaded DNA activated it What is a negatively loaded DNA?

fabian2k 4y ago

That's a theory that I've seen quite often online, but as far as I could tell there is no evidence at all for it. I also haven't seen this argued from any official sources. It's a plausible-sounding explanation, that has no data behind it as far as I can tell.

z7 4y ago
Detection of mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines in Human Breast Milk: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32998268 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32998268 Detection of spike protein in brain and heart (single case study): https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/10/10/1651 https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/10/10/1651 The larger question seems to be the biodistribution of the vaccine in general, not necessarily via bloodstream. From the first study: "We speculate that, following the vaccine administration, lipid nanoparticles containing the vaccine mRNA are carried to mammary glands via hematogenous and/or lymphatic routes."
- briandon 4y ago
  Have you seen the Japanese Pfizer biodistribution study, which looked at where LNPs ended up in mice? https://www.docdroid.net/xq0Z8B0/pfizer-report-japanese-government-pdf https://www.docdroid.net/xq0Z8B0/pfizer-report-japanese-gove...
  - z7 4y ago
    No, hadn't seen that one! The 2021 consensus seems to be that the amounts detected are so minuscule that there is no cause for concern. I wonder if that's the whole story. I also wonder why there aren't more studies on this.
    - briandon 4y ago
      In the linked report, the organ distribution of the LNPs is given in a table that spans two pages (pages 16-17 of the PDF corresponding to pages 6-7 in the report's internal numbering). After 48 hours, only 24.6% of the lipids from the LNPs in the rodents' doses had remained at the injection site. The liver ended up with 16.2% and the spleen with slightly in excess of 1%. The remainder (nearly 60%) was widely distributed. The table has values for specific organs and tissues.