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I recognize physical harm is separate but that’s why I used the word escalation. I also didn’t imply a direction for the physical harm. Escalation from speech

by dagmx 4y ago

I recognize physical harm is separate but that’s why I used the word escalation. I also didn’t imply a direction for the physical harm. Escalation from speech to physical harm can come in many forms. Like you said, Kanye 2024+antisemitism is a form of stochastic terror, using one persons speech to convince others to cause physical harm. But it can also be emotional abuse that is often not seen by many people that can lead to self harm. Or most simply, it can just be escalation of emotions that leads to mutual physical aggression. With regards to equality, I don’t think it means that demographics should be evenly split. For one, that’s impossible given the large number of demographics and population variances. But I also think it’s more than equal opportunity. Equal opportunity only tracks the opportunity to get a job at a superficial level. There’s also the pushing out of non-majority demographics through compounded aggressions. This is quite trackable in many companies and colleges as you can see big differences in percentage shares between career milestones (each year in university, or promotions in companies), but very few companies post it. Netflix and Apple have fairly good reports here So to that end I’d posit: even if we’ve become better about equality, and agree we should have equal opportunity, are we actually setting up our systems to measure whether we’re being honest about it? Also to your percentages. I think that is heavily at risk of inverting cause and consequence

Manuel_D 4y ago
> even if we’ve become better about equality, and agree we should have equal opportunity, are we actually setting up our systems to measure whether we’re being honest about it? We do have the tools: anonymize the application process. The way to find out if you're orchestra auditions are biased is to put a veil between the musician and the judging panel. In tech, the way to find out if your interviews are biased is to mask the gender of the applicants. Some companies are already doing this: https://interviewing.io/blog/voice-modulation-gender-technical-interviews https://interviewing.io/blog/voice-modulation-gender-technic...
- dagmx 4y ago
  No, you missed the other part of it that I explicitly mentioned. It’s not just about the hiring of the job but the space between any two milestones in the job. It’s all well if we’re hiring tons of diverse juniors. But if we push them out unknowingly before they grow their careers ,we’re not really helping that much
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    If someone doesn't like playing the flute, and thus doesn't practice playing the flute, are they going to have the same chances at a blind flute audition as someone who's practiced their whole life? Is that evidence that the audition is biased? If someone grows up in poverty and has to work and thus has no time to play to flute we can recognize the disadvantage of poverty, but that doesn't make the blind audition biased either. The disadvantage stems from the lack of time to play the flute, not the audition process. If we're talking about the tech specifically, there's compelling evidence that poverty and lack of education attainment is a barrier for BIPOC people entering tech. But it's exceededingly hard to make that argument for women's underrepresented. Women are actually overrepresented in university. There's a strong argument to be made that women actually have more opportunity to enter tech than men. Rates of harassment in tech are actually lower than on plenty of female-dominated industries like education and administration [1]. Most of the common arguments to support the claim that women are being "pushed out" lacks substance. 1. https://www.workingnowandthen.com/blog/workplace-sexual-harassment-by-industry/ https://www.workingnowandthen.com/blog/workplace-sexual-hara...
    - dagmx 4y ago
      Again, you’re missing the point of demographic attrition or inequity of promotion over a career and are focusing on entrance alone. Your link also only talks about sexual harassment, not harassment in general. Instead of focusing on just women, extend it to any demographic. The issue of attrition/inequity in minorities (whatever they may be) within a workplace is easily trackable within companies by looking at the makeup at various seniority milestones. Again, the few companies that publish this data (Apple and Netflix come first to mind) show there’s inequity in the approaches that exist , but most importantly it also shows that you can’t just view total makeup as the metric but need to break it down into career milestones , and across corporate divisions to really understand the problem space. Again: equality doesn’t start and end at hiring. https://www.apple.com/diversity/ https://www.apple.com/diversity/ https://jobs.netflix.com/inclusion https://jobs.netflix.com/inclusion
      - Manuel_D 4y ago

by dagmx 4y ago

Manuel_D 4y ago

> even if we’ve become better about equality, and agree we should have equal opportunity, are we actually setting up our systems to measure whether we’re being honest about it? We do have the tools: anonymize the application process. The way to find out if you're orchestra auditions are biased is to put a veil between the musician and the judging panel. In tech, the way to find out if your interviews are biased is to mask the gender of the applicants. Some companies are already doing this: https://interviewing.io/blog/voice-modulation-gender-technical-interviews https://interviewing.io/blog/voice-modulation-gender-technic...

dagmx 4y ago
No, you missed the other part of it that I explicitly mentioned. It’s not just about the hiring of the job but the space between any two milestones in the job. It’s all well if we’re hiring tons of diverse juniors. But if we push them out unknowingly before they grow their careers ,we’re not really helping that much
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  If someone doesn't like playing the flute, and thus doesn't practice playing the flute, are they going to have the same chances at a blind flute audition as someone who's practiced their whole life? Is that evidence that the audition is biased? If someone grows up in poverty and has to work and thus has no time to play to flute we can recognize the disadvantage of poverty, but that doesn't make the blind audition biased either. The disadvantage stems from the lack of time to play the flute, not the audition process. If we're talking about the tech specifically, there's compelling evidence that poverty and lack of education attainment is a barrier for BIPOC people entering tech. But it's exceededingly hard to make that argument for women's underrepresented. Women are actually overrepresented in university. There's a strong argument to be made that women actually have more opportunity to enter tech than men. Rates of harassment in tech are actually lower than on plenty of female-dominated industries like education and administration [1]. Most of the common arguments to support the claim that women are being "pushed out" lacks substance. 1. https://www.workingnowandthen.com/blog/workplace-sexual-harassment-by-industry/ https://www.workingnowandthen.com/blog/workplace-sexual-hara...
  - dagmx 4y ago
    Again, you’re missing the point of demographic attrition or inequity of promotion over a career and are focusing on entrance alone. Your link also only talks about sexual harassment, not harassment in general. Instead of focusing on just women, extend it to any demographic. The issue of attrition/inequity in minorities (whatever they may be) within a workplace is easily trackable within companies by looking at the makeup at various seniority milestones. Again, the few companies that publish this data (Apple and Netflix come first to mind) show there’s inequity in the approaches that exist , but most importantly it also shows that you can’t just view total makeup as the metric but need to break it down into career milestones , and across corporate divisions to really understand the problem space. Again: equality doesn’t start and end at hiring. https://www.apple.com/diversity/ https://www.apple.com/diversity/ https://jobs.netflix.com/inclusion https://jobs.netflix.com/inclusion
    - Manuel_D 4y ago