> These people have the advantage of having abandoned civility, but they still get to weaponize civility to make sure their voice is heard without interruption, without immediate critique or debate, without consequence.
This sounds similar to conservatives/right-ish people complaining about cancel culture. Generally most of your text strikes me as hyperbole, having actually made an effort to understand conservatives despite not really falling into their camp. Nothing you assert sounds familiar to me.
This matters to me because the thing that made me listen to conservative voices in the first place was that their self-expressed beliefs never lined up with what people told me they thought. Crying wolf etc. At worst they’re religious freaks that don’t want to call a gay marriage a marriage (petty) and think trans stuff is a sexual fetish (out of touch). Yet I’m to believe in 2022 I’m going to get lynched for liking dick. I actively stopped caring about politics bc I can never tell anymore when people are trying to freak me out to get me to listen to them. This being said as someone who grew up gay and scared in the traditional underbelly of the US.
Some specific reactions follow:
> I don't agree with what this guy is saying about wanting trans people dragged away by cops and beaten
Are you referring to some specific event, or is this just what you believe all non-lefty people secretly want? In what context, just generally if a born-X person publicly presents as Y? This version of trans opposition is foreign to me and makes no sense.
> Leftists don't want Matt Walsh giving a talk at a university because he's going to do what he always does and in some form call for violence against LGBT people.
I’ve only ever seen his JRE interview, do you mean explicit, general advocacy of literal physical violence against LGBT persons? I think he exploits general confusion around gender vs sex and concern for children, but I’ve never heard anyone advocate anything close to that. Matt specifically comes off as a troll.
> So... when is that? When will we get to debate Steven Crowder in a public space?
Doesn’t he literally go to public spaces with signs saying “change my mind”?
> Leftists are forced to lash out at the false definition of civility that lets people say "I dunno, trans people are icky, let's just not let them pee in public,” but doesn't let people say "that's fucked up, where are trans people supposed to pee then?"
In the bathroom associated with their biological sex? Also who is preventing trans activists from speaking? I think you have the power dynamics mixed up, every major US institution appears on-board with affirming trans identity. Honestly I don’t really understand why women need a whole separate bathroom to begin with.
Re matt walsh it seems his most recent public statements haven't trickled into much of the HN consciousness, I recommend listening to him say in his own words how he wants people that do drag shows to have their doors kicked down and thrown in prison:
https://www.losangelesblade.com/2022/10/20/matt-walsh-police-need-to-break-down-the-doors-of-drag-shows/ https://www.losangelesblade.com/2022/10/20/matt-walsh-police...
> Doesn’t he literally go to public spaces with signs saying “change my mind”?
Not anytime recently I'm aware of. He's a single example of the notoriously hard to pin down and debate conservative crowd. He famously dodges debates with liberal intellectuals. Sam something. I'm out right now, can't remember name.
> In the bathroom associated with their biological sex? Also who is preventing trans activists from speaking?
Schools across the usa are limiting trans students rights to use bathrooms, getting banned from participating in sports, etc. Weird legislation is being proposed to check student genitals. It's getting super weird in America and I recommend poking around a bit if interested, though I also avoid usa news now, mostly because it depresses me.
> Honestly I don’t really understand why women need a whole separate bathroom to begin with.
I don't understand why men have a different bathroom lol I think it's a little curious you said it like that instead of "I don't understand why we separate bathroom based on gender
" Neither do I for what it's worth but it's kinda moot when LGBT people are being shot because of the rhetoric in the usa right now
> Yet I’m to believe in 2022 I’m going to get lynched for liking dick.
In the usa it's more likely you'll be shot while congregating in places known to serve LGBT people. I don't get why you're like... Downplaying that there's violence against LGBT people in the usa?
> In the usa it's more likely you'll be shot while congregating in places known to serve LGBT people. I don't get why you're like... Downplaying that there's violence against LGBT people in the usa?
To be flippant (and gay): I'm also likely to be shot at a Walmart, a parade, or any other place just going about my business.
Luckily I'm not a teacher, so I don't spend a ton of time in schools.
I'm pretty sure I'm more at risk statistically in going grocery shopping, to the movies, etc.
> I recommend listening to him say in his own words how he wants people that do drag shows to have their doors kicked down and thrown in prison:
Fair enough, this guy seems pretty out of touch with reality listening to this clip. I’ll listen more carefully to similar speech in the future.
> Sam something. I'm out right now, can't remember name
Sam Harris maybe?
> I think it's a little curious you said it like that instead of "I don't understand why we separate bathroom based on gender "
I assume men aren’t protesting women (gender or sex) entering their bathroom, the issue has always come across as a protect women from creeps thing. Your version is better though.
> Schools across the usa are limiting trans students rights to use bathrooms, getting banned from participating in sports, etc.
Just more protection stuff afaict, in the case of sports around sex-based physical differences leading to unfair advantage and possible physical harm. Am I uninformed and transpeople are getting banned outright?
> I also avoid usa news now, mostly because it depresses me
Yeah feel that, I just feel helpless and scared reading the news. It’s a beautiful country though, and on a person-by-person basis I’ve found people to be mostly wonderful. I try to hold on to that.
> I don't get why you're like... Downplaying that there's violence against LGBT people in the usa?
Violence against LGBT people is a reality, it’s just rare enough and punished sufficiently now that I’m prepared to mourn but write it off (from a personal risk perspective) as the occasional savage and continue going to gay bars unworried. I’m more frightened about getting mugged on my way to the bar. That or people not listening if it does start getting really bad because people just stop believing us.
>Leftists are forced to lash out at the false definition of civility that lets people say "I dunno, trans people are icky, let's just not let them pee in public," but doesn't let people say "that's fucked up, where are trans people supposed to pee then?" Because these counter points don't get platformed nearly as much, either because of conservatism or, cynically, because what they have to say is less surprising / offensive / infuriating and thus they won't generate as much attention / clicks / eyeballs / outrage / engagement.
They just want us dead, literally, read it a hundred times. Whether is being killed or suicide, it's the same. Sadly we are an absurd minority (<0.2%) and the tides are already turning for their relief. I gladly don't live in the USA, I would be planning to leave if that were the case
Posting such a response is attempting to impose upon me time that I am not willing to spend on you. It's disrespectful.
The argument you're trying to formulate here is that being uninvited as a speaker at the grammy's isn't a big deal because the person was able to give their speech somewhere else in front of a completely different audience eventually. That's not how that works, the talk he was uninvited from is considered an honor in his profession.
Then you try to imply he benefited from it, so why is everyone opposed to it? That's akin to arguing that the reasons for naming a boy Sue is valid parenting advice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gbtm-93oqE&t=146s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gbtm-93oqE&t=146s
2:26 timestamp
listen to the end to understand the point fully.
per the link about naming, I'm not surprised you misunderstood what Feynman was saying, but that's not my problem.
> Just more protection stuff afaict, in the case of sports around sex-based physical differences leading to unfair advantage and possible physical harm.
To be clear, women have been asking conservatives for specific changes to the law that would better protect themselves. Conservatives have been largely deaf to these requests, and instead have just completed their 50 year political project of gutting Roe v. Wade, which has been a huge step back for women's health and rights. So the idea that conservatives who are championing bathroom bans and sports bans are doing so to protect women doesn't pass the laugh test. In 2022, conservative politicians and SCOTUS justices are far more dangerous to women's health than anything else.
The bathroom and sports bans being made into law by conservatives are not to help women; they are to hurt trans people as a signal to their political base, because they can't signal with gay people anymore. Indeed, they tried the same thing in the decades past with gay people, labeling them a danger to society, the army, public health -- anything. Now being gay is more acceptable in society writ large, but the political animus against them still exists in conservatives circles. So just dusted off the old playbook, crossed out "gay", replaced it with "trans", and they ran it again like it's 1985. Saddest part is that is that it works so well.
> If you were to attempt an actual definition of “cancel”, you’d be forced to admit that nothing really bad comes of it (unless you can bring up more examples, but you seem to only cite the one).
What's happening here is I and others are demonstrating that the concept of "woke mobs cancelling people" is essentially a totally fabricated non-issue that is being used as reactionary fear-mongering to oppose progressivism. It's a way to maintain inequitable hierarchies and disparities, through various rhetorical strategies, such as claiming the very act of trying to dismantle said hierarchies is creating them ("cancelling" conservative viewpoints, accusations of thought-crime, etc).
What you're blatantly failing to do is demonstrate that our accusation that this is all made-up fear mongering is incorrect. You simply can't defend "cancelled," you can't point to more examples, to use your terminology, you've well "lost" this conversation. I don't like that framing though because I'm not here to "win arguments," I do that in my head in the shower every day lol, I'm here to hone my own values and viewpoints against people that genuinely disagree with me.
I actually did want you to provide a real definition of cancel and what you're concerned about because to be honest I'm not going to go out of my way to research the potential negative side effects on rich successful white men of not being allowed to be openly misogynistic or racist or supportive of unjust power structures, and so if there actually are unexpected outcomes, I want to know, and see how these things that are my values (lifting up minorities etc) can be improved. Normally that means talking with people who want to throw my values out with the bathwater, but that's fine and expected. What's frustrating is when they throw their own values out with the bathwater. At least with you, quite happily, that hasn't ended in an anti-semitic or racist rant, which is how it usually goes.