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>If you view some speech as a problem then you're just not for free speech. I strongly disagree. Support for freedom of speech means being anti-censorship. I

>If you view some speech as a problem then you're just not for free speech. I strongly disagree. Support for freedom of speech means being anti-censorship. It's perfectly coherent to believe that particular speech does harm, and also should not be censored. Suppose you and I are top medical researchers, and we disagree about the best way to treat a disease. It's perfectly coherent for me to believe that your speech is killing people by promoting a treatment which is suboptimal/counterproductive, and also believe that your speech should not be censored.

fein 4y ago
I don't believe that your example is what the first amendment exists to protect, in fact if your hypothetical researcher is causing physical harm to people with their treatment, that's probably a criminal offense that has nothing to do with political speech.
- darawk 4y ago
  Scientists and doctors regularly disagree with each other about which treatments are best for patient, how much heavily to regulate pharmaceuticals, etc. And who is right in those debates have far reaching consequences for human life. Thousands of people live or die every year based on those disagreements. Ignaz Semmelweiss's life is the perfect example of this phenomenon in action, with extreme consequences: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis He realized doctors were killing their patients by not washing their hands and cleaning their instruments. He devised simple solutions to this problem. The doctors of his day laughed him out of the room and had him committed to an insane asylum where he was effectively tortured to death. The consensus of medical practitioners at the time was that he was a crank. But he was right. Should he have been imprisoned? Certainly the doctors of his day would have had him banned from social media for "misinformation" if they could have, and they did far worse. We abide by the principle of free expression not because it causes the least harm in every instance, but because it causes the least harm in expectation. The value of minority viewpoints that are right about important things that the majority is wrong about will always outweigh the harm of harmful speech, in aggregate. And one thing is clear from all of human history: We are not responsible enough to tell the difference ex ante.
pgayed 4y ago
When should statements be outlawed? Are people free to make untrue statements? Are people free to make “falsified” statements? Are statements inducements?
- pgayed 4y ago
  Do people have the right to be uninformed?
- 40amxn40 4y ago
  Never Yes Yes No
  - librish 4y ago
    If person A's lies have clearly and demonstrably hurt person B's reputation, relationships, livelihood, and personal safety, should they have any recourse?
    - darawk 4y ago
      Semmelweis's lies demonstrably (according to contemporary experts) hurt the reputation of the entire medical establishment of his day. Fortunately, back then, they had the recourse to put him in an insane asylum.
      - ShredKazoo 4y ago
        I just did a bit of reading on wikipedia about Semmelweis, and I think there is an interesting wrinkle which is normally left out of the Semmelweis tale. The effect size from handwashing was huge, but even Semmelweis couldn't explain why it worked. Handwashing only ended up catching on later once we had the germ theory of disease. I wonder if a good modern analogy for Semmelweis would be if we did a study on crystal healing or Reiki, and the crystal healing/Reiki was found to vastly outperform placebo pills. (Actually something like this sort of did happen with parapsychology. The effect sizes were pretty small I believe, though.) Obviously in hindsight, other docs still should've listened to Semmelweis. What I'm trying to get at here is that sussing out the truth can actually be a pretty tricky thing. Even if the docs had somewhat good reason to accuse Semmelweis of spreading medical misinfo, it was still a catastrophic mistake in retrospect.
komali2 4y ago
This is the second time I've seen this specific example in this context. Where are people getting this from? And why is it being used to counter "we shouldn't tolerate Nazis?" I don't understand in real life how it would arise that two medical experts could be looking at data that contradicts each other so strongly that one could believe the other's treatment is suboptimal to fatal lengths without the recommended treatment being resolvable in a single conversation (research so inconclusive on either as to make both treatments suspect imo). Why would either professional be presenting a treatment as "recommended" without the strong caveat of "but others of my caliber think this recommended treatment will kill you." If said caveat isn't included, surely we don't want doctors going around giving such blatantly misinformative advice? And again why is the "free speech " blanket always cast so wide as to include this? We aren't allowed to not have Nazis around without risking restricting medical debate? Smacks of slippery slope.
- listenallyall 4y ago
  > how it would arise that two medical experts could be looking at data that contradicts each other so strongly that one could believe the other's treatment is suboptimal to fatal lengths It's happening right now (has been for 2 years) with COVID vaccines. Also permanent gender surgery performed on minors -- doctors performing them say they are saving lives, opponents say they are mutilating children below the age of consent.
- ShredKazoo 4y ago
  >Where are people getting this from? I came up with the example myself. You and I actually discussed it here on HN the other week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33998494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33998494 I wasn't using that example to counter "we shouldn't tolerate Nazis". I was using it to counter the sentence I quoted: "If you view some speech as a problem then you're just not for free speech." There's an important distinction to be made between speech I think causes harm, and speech I think should be censored. That's all I wanted to say with my thought experiment. I actually do not believe all speech should be always be protected. I agree with the MIT statement that harassment shouldn't be protected. And it seems to me that e.g. expressing support for Hitler could credibly be regarded as harassment. (Same for e.g. labeling someone as a "Nazi" because they say the US should have stronger border security.) More details on my position here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34135283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34135283
78124781 4y ago
And in other contexts, you can imagine supporting the right of Communists to speak and organize even if you find Communism abhorrent and misguided. Note too the benefits of allowing/supporting the right of [insert disliked political group] to speak: 1) You find out who is in that group when they speak (as opposed to them remaining anonymous/hidden online) and potentially address them directly 2) You might be able to question them to find out what led them to that position to prevent more people from going in that direction 3) You can be aware of the message that they are trying to send and counter it with more speech In contrast, doing something like banning support for the Communist party is likely to lead to 1) more sympathy for Communism as an oppressed outgroup; 2) a lack of understanding of how extensive support for Communism is and what might be causing it; 3) the use of "Communism" as something that people can use to denounce each other as part of petty/unrelated feuds.

fein 4y ago

I don't believe that your example is what the first amendment exists to protect, in fact if your hypothetical researcher is causing physical harm to people with their treatment, that's probably a criminal offense that has nothing to do with political speech.

darawk 4y ago
Scientists and doctors regularly disagree with each other about which treatments are best for patient, how much heavily to regulate pharmaceuticals, etc. And who is right in those debates have far reaching consequences for human life. Thousands of people live or die every year based on those disagreements. Ignaz Semmelweiss's life is the perfect example of this phenomenon in action, with extreme consequences: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis He realized doctors were killing their patients by not washing their hands and cleaning their instruments. He devised simple solutions to this problem. The doctors of his day laughed him out of the room and had him committed to an insane asylum where he was effectively tortured to death. The consensus of medical practitioners at the time was that he was a crank. But he was right. Should he have been imprisoned? Certainly the doctors of his day would have had him banned from social media for "misinformation" if they could have, and they did far worse. We abide by the principle of free expression not because it causes the least harm in every instance, but because it causes the least harm in expectation. The value of minority viewpoints that are right about important things that the majority is wrong about will always outweigh the harm of harmful speech, in aggregate. And one thing is clear from all of human history: We are not responsible enough to tell the difference ex ante.

pgayed 4y ago

When should statements be outlawed? Are people free to make untrue statements? Are people free to make “falsified” statements? Are statements inducements?

pgayed 4y ago
Do people have the right to be uninformed?
40amxn40 4y ago
Never Yes Yes No
- librish 4y ago
  If person A's lies have clearly and demonstrably hurt person B's reputation, relationships, livelihood, and personal safety, should they have any recourse?
  - darawk 4y ago
    Semmelweis's lies demonstrably (according to contemporary experts) hurt the reputation of the entire medical establishment of his day. Fortunately, back then, they had the recourse to put him in an insane asylum.
    - ShredKazoo 4y ago
      I just did a bit of reading on wikipedia about Semmelweis, and I think there is an interesting wrinkle which is normally left out of the Semmelweis tale. The effect size from handwashing was huge, but even Semmelweis couldn't explain why it worked. Handwashing only ended up catching on later once we had the germ theory of disease. I wonder if a good modern analogy for Semmelweis would be if we did a study on crystal healing or Reiki, and the crystal healing/Reiki was found to vastly outperform placebo pills. (Actually something like this sort of did happen with parapsychology. The effect sizes were pretty small I believe, though.) Obviously in hindsight, other docs still should've listened to Semmelweis. What I'm trying to get at here is that sussing out the truth can actually be a pretty tricky thing. Even if the docs had somewhat good reason to accuse Semmelweis of spreading medical misinfo, it was still a catastrophic mistake in retrospect.

komali2 4y ago

This is the second time I've seen this specific example in this context. Where are people getting this from? And why is it being used to counter "we shouldn't tolerate Nazis?" I don't understand in real life how it would arise that two medical experts could be looking at data that contradicts each other so strongly that one could believe the other's treatment is suboptimal to fatal lengths without the recommended treatment being resolvable in a single conversation (research so inconclusive on either as to make both treatments suspect imo). Why would either professional be presenting a treatment as "recommended" without the strong caveat of "but others of my caliber think this recommended treatment will kill you." If said caveat isn't included, surely we don't want doctors going around giving such blatantly misinformative advice? And again why is the "free speech " blanket always cast so wide as to include this? We aren't allowed to not have Nazis around without risking restricting medical debate? Smacks of slippery slope.

listenallyall 4y ago
> how it would arise that two medical experts could be looking at data that contradicts each other so strongly that one could believe the other's treatment is suboptimal to fatal lengths It's happening right now (has been for 2 years) with COVID vaccines. Also permanent gender surgery performed on minors -- doctors performing them say they are saving lives, opponents say they are mutilating children below the age of consent.
ShredKazoo 4y ago
>Where are people getting this from? I came up with the example myself. You and I actually discussed it here on HN the other week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33998494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33998494 I wasn't using that example to counter "we shouldn't tolerate Nazis". I was using it to counter the sentence I quoted: "If you view some speech as a problem then you're just not for free speech." There's an important distinction to be made between speech I think causes harm, and speech I think should be censored. That's all I wanted to say with my thought experiment. I actually do not believe all speech should be always be protected. I agree with the MIT statement that harassment shouldn't be protected. And it seems to me that e.g. expressing support for Hitler could credibly be regarded as harassment. (Same for e.g. labeling someone as a "Nazi" because they say the US should have stronger border security.) More details on my position here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34135283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34135283

78124781 4y ago

And in other contexts, you can imagine supporting the right of Communists to speak and organize even if you find Communism abhorrent and misguided. Note too the benefits of allowing/supporting the right of [insert disliked political group] to speak: 1) You find out who is in that group when they speak (as opposed to them remaining anonymous/hidden online) and potentially address them directly 2) You might be able to question them to find out what led them to that position to prevent more people from going in that direction 3) You can be aware of the message that they are trying to send and counter it with more speech In contrast, doing something like banning support for the Communist party is likely to lead to 1) more sympathy for Communism as an oppressed outgroup; 2) a lack of understanding of how extensive support for Communism is and what might be causing it; 3) the use of "Communism" as something that people can use to denounce each other as part of petty/unrelated feuds.