4 ms·

Me and my friends are not interested in finding a new bar just because of some stranger’s abstract belief that we’re the ones who should leave when a loudmouth

Me and my friends are not interested in finding a new bar just because of some stranger’s abstract belief that we’re the ones who should leave when a loudmouth Nazi shows up.

happyopossum 4y ago
So ignore him, call him an a-hole, or get into an argue with him. You don’t need to turn to an authority figure to shut him up.
- int_19h 4y ago
  The Nazi bar parable states that you have to immediately kick the guy out, physically, otherwise it quickly "turns into a Nazi bar".
epicureanideal 4y ago
There’s a difference between being able to speak and being offered common platforms even when they’re available, versus someone loudly disturbing everyone around them repeatedly who did not choose to attend an event, and which is not in a public or semi-public space.
jhugo 4y ago
The proprietor of the bar isn't required to let them use it as a platform for their ideas, and given that Nazi is not a protected class, they're not required to even let them inside. They can turf this hypothetical Nazi out on the street and let them rant out there.
- 40amxn40 4y ago
  There is no such thing as a protected class. You're trying to say "people I agree with".
  - jhugo 4y ago
    What? Of course there is, in the United States and many other countries. Protected classes are explicitly defined by the Civil Rights Act, Americans with Disabilities Act, and others. The bar owner can't refuse entry to a person because they are of a certain ethnicity, for example. But they absolutely can refuse entry to them for being a Nazi, or for any other attribute not protected in law.
    - 40amxn40 4y ago
      There's no such thing where I live and the definition of Nazi is extremely fickle. In the strictest sense, there are no Nazis after 1945. One could set up a dress code or any other arbitrary policy as a proxy to refuse entry to any group, without explicitly doing so.
      - jhugo 4y ago
        Sure. What's your point? Your original comment seemed like you were trying to rebut my point that the Nazi (for literally any definition of Nazi you care to use) can just be removed from the bar. But it seems like you are not trying to rebut that, so I'm confused what this subthread is actually about.
        40amxn40 4y ago
        I have no problem the hypothetical Nazi being removed from that particular bar, just as long as it's possible to have a Nazi-friendly bar. I suspect you're not happy with that either, and that's my point.
      - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
        > One could set up a dress code or any other arbitrary policy as a proxy to refuse entry to any group, without explicitly doing so. Not in the US you can't. If a policy, even when applied equally, unduly affects a protected class, it's unconsitutional. For example, if a restaurant enacts a "no headwear" policy it's still unconstitutional because by and large this is primarily going to affect the muslim population (and a segment of the jewish population), but will have very little effect on anyone else. If the policy was instead "no headwear with words on it" the policy would NOT be unconstitutional because it does NOT unduly affect a specific group of people. There are other exceptions, of course, generally around security. You can imagine a bank not allowing the full covering of ones face for security reasons even if that does appear to target people who wear burka's day to day. --- so long story short is that it's not super simple, but in the US you absolutely cannot try and get around it by proxy and there is established law on how to identify this.
40amxn40 4y ago
What you're interested in doesn't matter. You have the right to rebut and the right to fuck off.
komali2 4y ago
Responses to this argue that when obnoxious nazis show up, we should just act like the nazi, using violent speech if necessary (tell him to "fuck off"). I don't know about you all, but personally I'm interested in participating in civil society most of the time. I don't want to have to get into a violent debate with swearing with fucking nazis, the same I don't want to breath toxic fumes or drive a car to work. I vote for bus stops, I vote for carbon taxes, and I similarly want to leverage our societal mechanisms to not have to act as an individual agent in the ideological war against fascism every single day. I've learned that obnoxious nazis have an advantage by violating the peace treaty terms of civil society and tolerance, because by definition they don't hold themselves by such rules. Meanwhile those of us that are just trying to live our lives still have these rules and values and are hesitant to abandon them to deal with the nazi for many reasons, not the least of which being we don't want to sink to their level. Not to mention, it's exhausting. For whatever reason the nazis get their rocks off to it, and thus it's less exhausting and more exhilarating. Fine. But the whole point of society is to rubber-band away things like that to create a community of people who at some basic level maintain a level of civility. When nazis show up, they violate the civility, they violate the peace treaty, and the solution shouldn't be "let them keep walking in and doing it and re-doing the fuck-off debate every time," but rather, close and lock the doors to them, because they've already told us who they are and what they're about. An oversimplified example: your carpet shop has a rule: no shoes on in the shop. You come in with shoes, you get thrown out. A guy shows up with a shirt on that says "My value is to track as much mud on as many carpets as I can in my life." Do you let him in the door?
- patmcc 4y ago
  >>An oversimplified example: your carpet shop has a rule: no shoes on in the shop. You come in with shoes, you get thrown out. A guy shows up with a shirt on that says "My value is to track as much mud on as many carpets as I can in my life." Do you let him in the door? Is he wearing shoes?
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    That was word for word what I was going to respond with until I saw your post.

Me and my friends are not interested in finding a new bar just because of some stranger’s abstract belief that we’re the ones who should leave when a loudmouth Nazi shows up.

happyopossum 4y ago

So ignore him, call him an a-hole, or get into an argue with him. You don’t need to turn to an authority figure to shut him up.

int_19h 4y ago
The Nazi bar parable states that you have to immediately kick the guy out, physically, otherwise it quickly "turns into a Nazi bar".

epicureanideal 4y ago

There’s a difference between being able to speak and being offered common platforms even when they’re available, versus someone loudly disturbing everyone around them repeatedly who did not choose to attend an event, and which is not in a public or semi-public space.

jhugo 4y ago

The proprietor of the bar isn't required to let them use it as a platform for their ideas, and given that Nazi is not a protected class, they're not required to even let them inside. They can turf this hypothetical Nazi out on the street and let them rant out there.

40amxn40 4y ago
There is no such thing as a protected class. You're trying to say "people I agree with".
- jhugo 4y ago
  What? Of course there is, in the United States and many other countries. Protected classes are explicitly defined by the Civil Rights Act, Americans with Disabilities Act, and others. The bar owner can't refuse entry to a person because they are of a certain ethnicity, for example. But they absolutely can refuse entry to them for being a Nazi, or for any other attribute not protected in law.
  - 40amxn40 4y ago
    There's no such thing where I live and the definition of Nazi is extremely fickle. In the strictest sense, there are no Nazis after 1945. One could set up a dress code or any other arbitrary policy as a proxy to refuse entry to any group, without explicitly doing so.
    - jhugo 4y ago
      Sure. What's your point? Your original comment seemed like you were trying to rebut my point that the Nazi (for literally any definition of Nazi you care to use) can just be removed from the bar. But it seems like you are not trying to rebut that, so I'm confused what this subthread is actually about.
      - 40amxn40 4y ago
        I have no problem the hypothetical Nazi being removed from that particular bar, just as long as it's possible to have a Nazi-friendly bar. I suspect you're not happy with that either, and that's my point.
    - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
      > One could set up a dress code or any other arbitrary policy as a proxy to refuse entry to any group, without explicitly doing so. Not in the US you can't. If a policy, even when applied equally, unduly affects a protected class, it's unconsitutional. For example, if a restaurant enacts a "no headwear" policy it's still unconstitutional because by and large this is primarily going to affect the muslim population (and a segment of the jewish population), but will have very little effect on anyone else. If the policy was instead "no headwear with words on it" the policy would NOT be unconstitutional because it does NOT unduly affect a specific group of people. There are other exceptions, of course, generally around security. You can imagine a bank not allowing the full covering of ones face for security reasons even if that does appear to target people who wear burka's day to day. --- so long story short is that it's not super simple, but in the US you absolutely cannot try and get around it by proxy and there is established law on how to identify this.

40amxn40 4y ago

What you're interested in doesn't matter. You have the right to rebut and the right to fuck off.

komali2 4y ago

Responses to this argue that when obnoxious nazis show up, we should just act like the nazi, using violent speech if necessary (tell him to "fuck off"). I don't know about you all, but personally I'm interested in participating in civil society most of the time. I don't want to have to get into a violent debate with swearing with fucking nazis, the same I don't want to breath toxic fumes or drive a car to work. I vote for bus stops, I vote for carbon taxes, and I similarly want to leverage our societal mechanisms to not have to act as an individual agent in the ideological war against fascism every single day. I've learned that obnoxious nazis have an advantage by violating the peace treaty terms of civil society and tolerance, because by definition they don't hold themselves by such rules. Meanwhile those of us that are just trying to live our lives still have these rules and values and are hesitant to abandon them to deal with the nazi for many reasons, not the least of which being we don't want to sink to their level. Not to mention, it's exhausting. For whatever reason the nazis get their rocks off to it, and thus it's less exhausting and more exhilarating. Fine. But the whole point of society is to rubber-band away things like that to create a community of people who at some basic level maintain a level of civility. When nazis show up, they violate the civility, they violate the peace treaty, and the solution shouldn't be "let them keep walking in and doing it and re-doing the fuck-off debate every time," but rather, close and lock the doors to them, because they've already told us who they are and what they're about. An oversimplified example: your carpet shop has a rule: no shoes on in the shop. You come in with shoes, you get thrown out. A guy shows up with a shirt on that says "My value is to track as much mud on as many carpets as I can in my life." Do you let him in the door?

patmcc 4y ago
>>An oversimplified example: your carpet shop has a rule: no shoes on in the shop. You come in with shoes, you get thrown out. A guy shows up with a shirt on that says "My value is to track as much mud on as many carpets as I can in my life." Do you let him in the door? Is he wearing shoes?
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  That was word for word what I was going to respond with until I saw your post.