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For me it is AOT compilation and packaging. An application language should be able to pull in most of its dependencies and runtime and be packaged into a reason

by melony 4y ago

For me it is AOT compilation and packaging. An application language should be able to pull in most of its dependencies and runtime and be packaged into a reasonably sized and performant binary. The reason why scripting languages (that are often dynamic) struggle with this is that too many of their dependencies have hotpaths written in third party languages like C which makes it hard to do easy cross compilation and linking. Some programming languages come from a culture that eschews AOT compilation. It is difficult to compile large dynamic languages with Lisp heritages (CL, Julia, Ruby etc., Scheme is an exception to this however). These languages always resort to using a stateful VM/interpreter snapshot in lieu of true AOT packaging (or even Java/.NET style lowered bytecode binaries). The existence of eval makes many things trivial but at the same time complicates deployment tremendously. Personally I am betting on JavaScript being the first dynamic and JITted (or incrementally compiled) language that can attain the AOT compilation without massively bloated binaries.

int_19h 4y ago
So wait, then C# wasn't an application language before there was a way to package AOT binaries to deploy directly to users?
- melony 4y ago
  It is, because the runtime is bundled with the OS (similar its counterpart the JVM is also extremely widely deployed) and its output is significantly lowered. C.f. > (or even Java/.NET style lowered bytecode binaries).
deepsun 4y ago
Re. AOT, as I said in my sibling comment, there's a counterexample -- Julia. It's AOT compiled, but dynamically typed. And it falls in scripting camp, IMHO.
- melony 4y ago
  Julia only does partial AOT, it still bundles the sysimage (~100MB+ of runtime, what I refer to in my above comment as the VM snapshot) c.f. https://docs.juliahub.com/PackageCompiler/MMV8C/1.2.7/devdocs/sysimages_part_1.html https://docs.juliahub.com/PackageCompiler/MMV8C/1.2.7/devdoc... Traditional AOT like you see in C/C++/Rust/Go/Zig would be able to treeshake and eliminate redundant codepaths, the binaries are all fairly small with minimal startup overhead.
  - deepsun 4y ago
    Makes sense, thanks, I don't know much about Julia. Another counterexample to AOT compilation being a feature of application languages is Java and C# -- both are clearly application languages, with strong focus and presence there, but both are interpreted. Although I can argue that it depends on the terminology regarding "compile", whether transpilation to .class bytecode can be called compilation (and everyone do call it "compilation", but if it really was, there would be no point in real AOT compilers for Java/C#).

by melony 4y ago

int_19h 4y ago

So wait, then C# wasn't an application language before there was a way to package AOT binaries to deploy directly to users?

melony 4y ago
It is, because the runtime is bundled with the OS (similar its counterpart the JVM is also extremely widely deployed) and its output is significantly lowered. C.f. > (or even Java/.NET style lowered bytecode binaries).

deepsun 4y ago

Re. AOT, as I said in my sibling comment, there's a counterexample -- Julia. It's AOT compiled, but dynamically typed. And it falls in scripting camp, IMHO.

melony 4y ago
Julia only does partial AOT, it still bundles the sysimage (~100MB+ of runtime, what I refer to in my above comment as the VM snapshot) c.f. https://docs.juliahub.com/PackageCompiler/MMV8C/1.2.7/devdocs/sysimages_part_1.html https://docs.juliahub.com/PackageCompiler/MMV8C/1.2.7/devdoc... Traditional AOT like you see in C/C++/Rust/Go/Zig would be able to treeshake and eliminate redundant codepaths, the binaries are all fairly small with minimal startup overhead.
- deepsun 4y ago
  Makes sense, thanks, I don't know much about Julia. Another counterexample to AOT compilation being a feature of application languages is Java and C# -- both are clearly application languages, with strong focus and presence there, but both are interpreted. Although I can argue that it depends on the terminology regarding "compile", whether transpilation to .class bytecode can be called compilation (and everyone do call it "compilation", but if it really was, there would be no point in real AOT compilers for Java/C#).