4 ms·

And why doesn't it focus on that? Because it's not a product in the traditional sense. It has completely different motives. I'm not going to argue this point u

And why doesn't it focus on that? Because it's not a product in the traditional sense. It has completely different motives. I'm not going to argue this point until I'm blue in the face with you. Because at some point this kind of stuff is why open protocols always lose.

clucas 4y ago
Then it sounds like its motives aren't compatible with widespread adoption in the same way (e.g.) Twitter is.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> it's not a product in the traditional sense. It has completely different motives If the motives aren’t engaging and delivering value to users, I’m not sure it has value beyond being a curiosity. If those are the motives, then it is a product. Not realising that is the classic trucks-versus-trains mistake. (Railroads didn’t initially see trucks as competition, because they were railroads, and trucks were trucks, while in reality, they were all freight. The railroads went bankrupt and were restructured.)
- hackmiester 4y ago
  The economics definition of "product" is "an item offered for sale." Since we are on a forum for startups, most people are likely using this definition. By this definition, Mastodon is not a product. It is not for sale; it is a tool to be used and it is free software. The set of motives behind its creation and maintenance are completely different than something assembled with the intend of sale for profit.
  - PixyMisa 4y ago
    Tools are also products. If you hope that people will use it, it is a product.
    - Teever 4y ago
      Yes but tools that aren't for sale aren't products as per the definition above.
      - brodock 4y ago
        Every instance with some amount of user is either sponsored by someone or some organization, or is asking for donations. The monetary transaction is there
        tarboreus 4y ago
        So is my local church a product because they pass around a hat? You seem a little muddled, or maybe you just see everything in the world through a product lens, never taking off your marketer (or whatever) hat. A highway is not a product, it's infrastructure. In the same way, Mastodon is infrastructure. If someone sells a Mastodon app, that's a product, just like someone selling traffic cones or a car is selling a product. Not everything in the world is a product. We don't live in a world of products and the void.
vineyardmike 4y ago
It isn’t a product in the sense that there isn’t an organization who’s job is to monitor “sales” metrics. It’s not a product the way email isn’t a product. gmail is a product, and gmail is email. As long as there’s no gmail for mastadon, mastadon won’t reach its final form.
- blacklion 4y ago
  its final form - dead one? gmail is one of the main reasons why e-mail is mostly dead outside coroprations. Yes, some old nerds (like me) still are subscribed to some mailing lists (like FreeBSD developers' ones), but it is mammoth turd, not life. gmail killed good desktop clients (and it is only so-so client by itself, with unusable filters, absence of proper threads and many other advanced features of now-defunct proper e-mail clients), and it try to create closed garden instead of federation (if your emails from self-hosted server never was shadow-banned by gmail, you are very lucky men). So your example is very... illustrative, so to say.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    > gmail is one of the main reasons why e-mail is mostly dead outside coroprations. Gmail is one of the main reasons why email is used by almost everyone. Together. It made e-mail truly accessible, and made it so anyone can use email, and can email anyone else. It was always used by corps (or universities), and some indie folk ram it themselves (I too tried running mine on-off for like 5 years and gave up recently). Gmail was one of the people that made it harder for indie folks, in the name of spam prevention, but it hardly killed e-mail. Everyone has email now. It’s not a walled garden, it’s just productized and made palatable for the masses. Apple runs an e-mail service too, as does most major tech companies. There are plenty of third party clients, with plenty of features, gmail be damned. I use third party clients, and they solve my needs, so i know they exist, even if maybe the ones you wanted don’t exist. > So your example is very... illustrative, so to say. Yes. While I disagree with your view on the state of email, I think that if I’m right about a successful mastadon, we’ll have parallel opinions then too.
    - 4y ago
ymolodtsov 4y ago
Because it lacks resources to hire people to work on this. Joinmastodon.org has become much better since a few years ago when I joined. But it still doesn't explain how do I choose between general-focus servers.

clucas 4y ago

Then it sounds like its motives aren't compatible with widespread adoption in the same way (e.g.) Twitter is.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> it's not a product in the traditional sense. It has completely different motives If the motives aren’t engaging and delivering value to users, I’m not sure it has value beyond being a curiosity. If those are the motives, then it is a product. Not realising that is the classic trucks-versus-trains mistake. (Railroads didn’t initially see trucks as competition, because they were railroads, and trucks were trucks, while in reality, they were all freight. The railroads went bankrupt and were restructured.)

hackmiester 4y ago
The economics definition of "product" is "an item offered for sale." Since we are on a forum for startups, most people are likely using this definition. By this definition, Mastodon is not a product. It is not for sale; it is a tool to be used and it is free software. The set of motives behind its creation and maintenance are completely different than something assembled with the intend of sale for profit.
- PixyMisa 4y ago
  Tools are also products. If you hope that people will use it, it is a product.
  - Teever 4y ago
    Yes but tools that aren't for sale aren't products as per the definition above.
    - brodock 4y ago
      Every instance with some amount of user is either sponsored by someone or some organization, or is asking for donations. The monetary transaction is there
      - tarboreus 4y ago
        So is my local church a product because they pass around a hat? You seem a little muddled, or maybe you just see everything in the world through a product lens, never taking off your marketer (or whatever) hat. A highway is not a product, it's infrastructure. In the same way, Mastodon is infrastructure. If someone sells a Mastodon app, that's a product, just like someone selling traffic cones or a car is selling a product. Not everything in the world is a product. We don't live in a world of products and the void.

vineyardmike 4y ago

It isn’t a product in the sense that there isn’t an organization who’s job is to monitor “sales” metrics. It’s not a product the way email isn’t a product. gmail is a product, and gmail is email. As long as there’s no gmail for mastadon, mastadon won’t reach its final form.

blacklion 4y ago
its final form - dead one? gmail is one of the main reasons why e-mail is mostly dead outside coroprations. Yes, some old nerds (like me) still are subscribed to some mailing lists (like FreeBSD developers' ones), but it is mammoth turd, not life. gmail killed good desktop clients (and it is only so-so client by itself, with unusable filters, absence of proper threads and many other advanced features of now-defunct proper e-mail clients), and it try to create closed garden instead of federation (if your emails from self-hosted server never was shadow-banned by gmail, you are very lucky men). So your example is very... illustrative, so to say.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  > gmail is one of the main reasons why e-mail is mostly dead outside coroprations. Gmail is one of the main reasons why email is used by almost everyone. Together. It made e-mail truly accessible, and made it so anyone can use email, and can email anyone else. It was always used by corps (or universities), and some indie folk ram it themselves (I too tried running mine on-off for like 5 years and gave up recently). Gmail was one of the people that made it harder for indie folks, in the name of spam prevention, but it hardly killed e-mail. Everyone has email now. It’s not a walled garden, it’s just productized and made palatable for the masses. Apple runs an e-mail service too, as does most major tech companies. There are plenty of third party clients, with plenty of features, gmail be damned. I use third party clients, and they solve my needs, so i know they exist, even if maybe the ones you wanted don’t exist. > So your example is very... illustrative, so to say. Yes. While I disagree with your view on the state of email, I think that if I’m right about a successful mastadon, we’ll have parallel opinions then too.
  - 4y ago

ymolodtsov 4y ago

Because it lacks resources to hire people to work on this. Joinmastodon.org has become much better since a few years ago when I joined. But it still doesn't explain how do I choose between general-focus servers.