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Oz certainly has the space, and the sun. Don't know about wind. What they need is water. > The trucks’ unchanging route was also a plus: The relatively flat lo

Oz certainly has the space, and the sun. Don't know about wind. What they need is water. > The trucks’ unchanging route was also a plus: The relatively flat loop enabled use of a smaller, cheaper, fuel cell. Am I ignoring something here, or couldn't they just lay railroad track then? It's not a heavily populated area.

idlewords 4y ago
A train could also use electric power directly without the extra steps of first making hydrogen and then converting it back to electricity. But building a train wouldn't get anyone talking.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  It's more efficient than hydrogen as well. And they could start building it today with no development work required. All the parts needed are available off the shelf.
- clouddrover 4y ago
  Anyone already talked about it: https://newatlas.com/transport/fortescue-wae-infinity-train-electric/ https://newatlas.com/transport/fortescue-wae-infinity-train-...
versteegen 4y ago
From a couple minutes of searching, hydrogen-powered freight locomotives don't seem to be available, with more focus instead on passenger trains powered by hydrogen fuel cells. https://www.railwaypro.com/wp/alstom-to-develop-a-hydrogen-solution-for-rail-freight-transport/ https://www.railwaypro.com/wp/alstom-to-develop-a-hydrogen-s...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  You said "hydrogen-powered freight locomotives." I didn't.
  - versteegen 4y ago
    I realise, but they seem to like hydrogen, and I'm speculating about their reasoning. Though electric trains would make more sense clearly.
- clouddrover 4y ago
  Canadian Pacific has built some freight trains and is testing them now: https://www.worldfinance.com/strategy/canadian-pacific-on-track-with-hydrogen-locomotives https://www.worldfinance.com/strategy/canadian-pacific-on-tr... https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/canadian-pacifics-hydrogen-powered-locomotive-makes-first-revenue-run/ https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/canadian-p...
masklinn 4y ago
> Am I ignoring something here, or couldn't they just lay railroad track then? It's not a heavily populated area. They'd need to either go directly through to the port's yard, through half the port and with a new bridge over a river, or branch off of a closer yard (between cluden and stuart), cross through a creek and two highways. Former means enormous capex (if you can even get permitted and negotiate with the port), and latter means merely large but now you're at the mercy of traffic on the NCL. Nothing impossible, but I can see how the refinery would have started trucking 25 years ago (apparently it started in 1996) and scaled that up progressively. And then there's the bad news that this section of the NCL is not electrified, so you'd still be paying for your diesel and it would be completely unhelpful. Not to mention as the article notes: > Resource-poor Asian neighbors such as Japan and Korea are also counting on Aussie green hydrogen to help get them off fossil fuels in the decades ahead. This is a project / study from the parent company, per their own "our company page": > In early 2021 our sister company Ark Energy Corporation was established by Korea Zinc to decarbonise the energy supply of the group starting with Sun Metals.
- ravel-bar-foo 4y ago
  That helps explain part of why Hyundai was running hydrogen ads on Korean broadcast news for years. I assumed it was because they knew they had fallen behind in battery tech research, but being able to source hydrogen (green or not) from Australia instead of the middle east must also be a factor.
jjcm 4y ago
> What they need is water Not necessarily. Once energy costs become around around 2.5x cheaper than they are now, MVC distillation becomes cost effective for desalination. With the space and sun they have, they have the potential for near unlimited water.
- UIUC_06 4y ago
  That doesn't really contradict what he said. They do need water, and desalination would be one way to get it.
  - XorNot 4y ago
    Salt water is actually ideal for hydrogen electrolysis, just have to manage the Chlorine gas you also get off.
emmelaich 4y ago
Southern Australia has predictable, medium strong wind. Over an enormous area. Has a strong directional component too - the "Roaring Forties" http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_018106.shtml http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_018106.shtm... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wind_farms_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wind_farms_in_Australi...
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  This is Queensland, though. Only one of the working farms in that Wikipedia article is up there.
  - rstuart4133 4y ago
    The idea is to use solar. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deserts_of_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deserts_of_Australia > About 40% of Australia is covered by dunes. Australia is the driest inhabited continent,[6][7] with the least fertile soils. We have room for solar panels to generate the entire energy consumption of the globe. Raw material availability isn't a problem in general. The water required is under 10% of what is currently used for agriculture, and if you want more you desalinate it. Desalination needs a lot of energy of course, but the one thing they won't be short of in this scenario is cheap electricity to power desalination plants. The thinking behind this is pretty simple. Australia is a major exporter of natural gas. If they can get the price of producing Hydrogen to below the cost of fracking for methane, then it's a winner. Last I checked they were a factor of 4 away, but that was before the Ukraine War. I don't know if it's possible to drop the production price by a factor of 4, but the price of natural gas rising by a factor of 4 seems entirely possible. Australia and Canada are the planets kings of resource extraction. This sort of thing is what they excel at. Unlike Canada, Australia has the land, the sun, and is next to Asia (with Queensland the closest). Asia is the worlds industrial base but is energy poor. Yes it is currently just a dream, but maybe not a pipe dream.
viraptor 4y ago
> Am I ignoring something here, or couldn't they just lay railroad track then I don't know how much of an impact this causes for freight, but passenger trains in Australia often get delayed / slowed down due to heat deforming the rails. At least in Victoria anyway. This may be one consideration for not going that way.

idlewords 4y ago

A train could also use electric power directly without the extra steps of first making hydrogen and then converting it back to electricity. But building a train wouldn't get anyone talking.

kwhitefoot 4y ago
It's more efficient than hydrogen as well. And they could start building it today with no development work required. All the parts needed are available off the shelf.
clouddrover 4y ago
Anyone already talked about it: https://newatlas.com/transport/fortescue-wae-infinity-train-electric/ https://newatlas.com/transport/fortescue-wae-infinity-train-...

versteegen 4y ago

From a couple minutes of searching, hydrogen-powered freight locomotives don't seem to be available, with more focus instead on passenger trains powered by hydrogen fuel cells. https://www.railwaypro.com/wp/alstom-to-develop-a-hydrogen-solution-for-rail-freight-transport/ https://www.railwaypro.com/wp/alstom-to-develop-a-hydrogen-s...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
AlbertCory 4y ago
You said "hydrogen-powered freight locomotives." I didn't.
- versteegen 4y ago
  I realise, but they seem to like hydrogen, and I'm speculating about their reasoning. Though electric trains would make more sense clearly.
clouddrover 4y ago
Canadian Pacific has built some freight trains and is testing them now: https://www.worldfinance.com/strategy/canadian-pacific-on-track-with-hydrogen-locomotives https://www.worldfinance.com/strategy/canadian-pacific-on-tr... https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/canadian-pacifics-hydrogen-powered-locomotive-makes-first-revenue-run/ https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/canadian-p...

masklinn 4y ago

> Am I ignoring something here, or couldn't they just lay railroad track then? It's not a heavily populated area. They'd need to either go directly through to the port's yard, through half the port and with a new bridge over a river, or branch off of a closer yard (between cluden and stuart), cross through a creek and two highways. Former means enormous capex (if you can even get permitted and negotiate with the port), and latter means merely large but now you're at the mercy of traffic on the NCL. Nothing impossible, but I can see how the refinery would have started trucking 25 years ago (apparently it started in 1996) and scaled that up progressively. And then there's the bad news that this section of the NCL is not electrified, so you'd still be paying for your diesel and it would be completely unhelpful. Not to mention as the article notes: > Resource-poor Asian neighbors such as Japan and Korea are also counting on Aussie green hydrogen to help get them off fossil fuels in the decades ahead. This is a project / study from the parent company, per their own "our company page": > In early 2021 our sister company Ark Energy Corporation was established by Korea Zinc to decarbonise the energy supply of the group starting with Sun Metals.

ravel-bar-foo 4y ago
That helps explain part of why Hyundai was running hydrogen ads on Korean broadcast news for years. I assumed it was because they knew they had fallen behind in battery tech research, but being able to source hydrogen (green or not) from Australia instead of the middle east must also be a factor.

jjcm 4y ago

> What they need is water Not necessarily. Once energy costs become around around 2.5x cheaper than they are now, MVC distillation becomes cost effective for desalination. With the space and sun they have, they have the potential for near unlimited water.

UIUC_06 4y ago
That doesn't really contradict what he said. They do need water, and desalination would be one way to get it.
- XorNot 4y ago
  Salt water is actually ideal for hydrogen electrolysis, just have to manage the Chlorine gas you also get off.

emmelaich 4y ago

Southern Australia has predictable, medium strong wind. Over an enormous area. Has a strong directional component too - the "Roaring Forties" http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_018106.shtml http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_018106.shtm... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wind_farms_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wind_farms_in_Australi...

AlbertCory 4y ago
This is Queensland, though. Only one of the working farms in that Wikipedia article is up there.
- rstuart4133 4y ago
  The idea is to use solar. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deserts_of_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deserts_of_Australia > About 40% of Australia is covered by dunes. Australia is the driest inhabited continent,[6][7] with the least fertile soils. We have room for solar panels to generate the entire energy consumption of the globe. Raw material availability isn't a problem in general. The water required is under 10% of what is currently used for agriculture, and if you want more you desalinate it. Desalination needs a lot of energy of course, but the one thing they won't be short of in this scenario is cheap electricity to power desalination plants. The thinking behind this is pretty simple. Australia is a major exporter of natural gas. If they can get the price of producing Hydrogen to below the cost of fracking for methane, then it's a winner. Last I checked they were a factor of 4 away, but that was before the Ukraine War. I don't know if it's possible to drop the production price by a factor of 4, but the price of natural gas rising by a factor of 4 seems entirely possible. Australia and Canada are the planets kings of resource extraction. This sort of thing is what they excel at. Unlike Canada, Australia has the land, the sun, and is next to Asia (with Queensland the closest). Asia is the worlds industrial base but is energy poor. Yes it is currently just a dream, but maybe not a pipe dream.

viraptor 4y ago

> Am I ignoring something here, or couldn't they just lay railroad track then I don't know how much of an impact this causes for freight, but passenger trains in Australia often get delayed / slowed down due to heat deforming the rails. At least in Victoria anyway. This may be one consideration for not going that way.