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These comments are hilarious. Linux user community: Linux has been fine for casual users for years! Give it to your grandma, it's not a problem! Also Linux us

These comments are hilarious. Linux user community: Linux has been fine for casual users for years! Give it to your grandma, it's not a problem! Also Linux user community: Wait, you used an nVidia GPU in your build? What kind of idiot scrub are you? If there's one thing I've seen that's consistent with Linux users over the last two decades, it's been blaming users for all their Linux-related problems.

ryandrake 4y ago
Or “You mean you want to run two monitors with different DPIs? What kind of oddball user are you, anyway?” Linux display stack’s treatment of monitor DPI is basically “throw our hands up and let apps like Firefox make it work!”
- reisse 4y ago
  I think you gave this example as a joke, but here is a quote from one of the Wayland developers: > I would suggest that this setting [UI scale] needs to be a global and not a per-output thing. If it was a per-output thing, windows moving between different monitors would probably have problems (text size changes while window size does not?). It is hard to imagine how it would work as a per-output setting, for me at least. See https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/34 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/i... , the original issue and the discussion gives quite some insights in how Linux developers see the world.
  - ryandrake 4y ago
    Unfortunately my example was based on real-world frustration. That conversation was just maddening to read. One person arguing for the end user’s experience and the other one (apparently winning) tunnel-visioned on “pixel perfect”, “well defined”, “guarantees to developers” and “relevant specifications”. Meanwhile, for the last at least five years, I can turn on my Mac, drag windows from one hidpi display to a low dpi display, and everything just works and window sizes and fonts behave sensibly. The ability to make tough technical compromises in favor of the average end user, over technical purity and developer comfort, is what distinguishes a polished, finished product from a science project.
    - reisse 4y ago
      And dragging apps between displays with different DPIs work on Windows too. Nothing more to add, wholeheartedly agree with you.
      - ryandrake 4y ago
        Well, Windows doesn't work that well. At least on my setup, when I drag a window across DPIs, the window size is incorrect on the other monitor, during the dragging animation, and then when I release the mouse button, the window and fonts properly "snap" to match what I'd expect. A little janky but it kind of works if you have no desire for a polished product.
  - fomine3 4y ago
    I wish the conversation was 10 years ago
devmunchies 4y ago
Linux scrub Q, does NVIDIA not use any Linux for themselves? Or is it a financial reason to ignore Linux?
- pram 4y ago
  I think they don't care about the userspace at all. I assume from their perspective, most (all?) of the Linux use-case is for their expensive cards to be running in servers doing CUDA.
  - bootsmann 4y ago
    Yet CUDA still basically only runs on RHEL and Ubuntu LTS. (tbf to Nvidia tho, their support is improving and with big tech putting a lot of weight behind cloud compute the problem will likely resolve itself)
- lmm 4y ago
  NVidia makes the best Linux driver + graphics card combination going, and always have. If you actually want to play games on Linux, NVidia cards are the way to go. But open-source people don't like them because their driver isn't open-source, and Wayland people don't like them because their driver has limited Wayland support.
  - l0b0 4y ago
    Absolutely the opposite experience here. I used Nvidia ~2015-2020, and AMD since. AMD works much better, period. This is with Arch Linux and NixOS.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      At least NVidia did not replace their driver with a less capable one for older cards. So instead of GL 4.1, AMD opens source does GL 3.3 for older APUs, and good luck trying to get any kind of video decoding acceleration.
  - DesiLurker 4y ago
whateveracct 4y ago
I have two nvidia machines and they work fine on NixOS. Including prime on my laptop!
lern_too_spel 4y ago
I've got elderly relatives using ChromeOS laptops and Android phones just fine. Both run on Linux and are far easier for them to use and for me to support than the alternatives.
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  Oh definitely, but we both know that when people talk about "using Linux" they don't mean Android and ChromeOS. You're technically correct, and for practical purposes incorrect.
cardanome 4y ago
I will offer a third perspective: Linux has a really horrible user experience on the Desktop but it is the least shit option of the mainstream operating systems. For me the choice is simple because a non-free operating would not be acceptable. And no, I am hardcore ideological about it, I use a Linux Kernel with binary blobs and all but the point is having system that serves me and me alone. Telemetry, advertisement, forced updates, not allowing me to do whatever the fuck I want with my system are non-starters. Beyond the ideological I want to note that while learning curve with Linux is steep there are some aspects that make it worth it: It is mostly a one time investment: Linux is pretty conservative. Once you get it, you get it and wont really have to learn anything new. Most of the time even the bigger disruptions to the ecosystem are not that relevant to the end user and can always be simply avoided if one chooses to, not just for years but decades or forever. Compare this to Windows. I used Windows XP heavily and absolutely wouldn't be able to perform basic tasks on an modern Windows system. In comparison, if as Linux user from the Windows XP era were teleported into our times, they would still feel at home on today's Linux and could be perfectly productive in nearly not time. If you are in tech, you might have to learn Linux anyway: Linux server skills are really important to have. And these skills translate back to the Linux Desktop and vice versa as well. Also docker performance is vastly better on Linux than on Windows or Mac so that alone makes the Linux the best platform for developers. (Not to mention many tools being only Linux native or having priority Linux support.) Also people need to stop using Ubuntu. I have been using Linux for ages and find the UI super confusing and wouldn't be able to do anything on it. It's just shit. Use Linux Mint. Oh and I am using NVIDIA GPUs just fine on Linux. I had some trouble with freezes and crashes but most of these got fixed in updates. Maybe we can use Haiku as a daily driver one day but for now there is really no good alternative to Linux.
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  My last attempt was using Mint precisely because that's what people kept recommending and it still sucked ass, ran into major resolution/scaling and audio issues immediately that made me abandon it for Windows 10. It's too bad, because W10 has its own annoyances (mostly the forced updates and boot interstitials) but at least it actually worked. While I don't have a problem with proprietary software as a Principe, it is nice to have community driven stuff as a counterpart, which is why I periodically test the waters with Linux. It's just that, every time I run into annoyances and problems that make me give it up. Anyway, ideology aside, I use all three major desktop OSes regularly: gaming desktop is Windows, work laptop is MacOS, workstation is Linux. Linux has certain niceties for developers, but for non-dev-specific stuff it's the most painful to use overall (although MacOS has a penchant for hiding things from the user which can be very frustrating). I also encounter the most instability with it, I think, though these days all three aren't that bad on that front. Edit: though I'm thinking about a Steam Deck, and that's a Linux PC I suppose. Valve has been doing great work at making Linux more viable for PC gaming.
pessimizer 4y ago
Your grandma is a big gamer, right? Or is she into deep learning stuff? Trying to figure out how being easy enough for your grandma is related at all to nvidia gpus.

ryandrake 4y ago

Or “You mean you want to run two monitors with different DPIs? What kind of oddball user are you, anyway?” Linux display stack’s treatment of monitor DPI is basically “throw our hands up and let apps like Firefox make it work!”

reisse 4y ago
I think you gave this example as a joke, but here is a quote from one of the Wayland developers: > I would suggest that this setting [UI scale] needs to be a global and not a per-output thing. If it was a per-output thing, windows moving between different monitors would probably have problems (text size changes while window size does not?). It is hard to imagine how it would work as a per-output setting, for me at least. See https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/34 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/i... , the original issue and the discussion gives quite some insights in how Linux developers see the world.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  Unfortunately my example was based on real-world frustration. That conversation was just maddening to read. One person arguing for the end user’s experience and the other one (apparently winning) tunnel-visioned on “pixel perfect”, “well defined”, “guarantees to developers” and “relevant specifications”. Meanwhile, for the last at least five years, I can turn on my Mac, drag windows from one hidpi display to a low dpi display, and everything just works and window sizes and fonts behave sensibly. The ability to make tough technical compromises in favor of the average end user, over technical purity and developer comfort, is what distinguishes a polished, finished product from a science project.
  - reisse 4y ago
    And dragging apps between displays with different DPIs work on Windows too. Nothing more to add, wholeheartedly agree with you.
    - ryandrake 4y ago
      Well, Windows doesn't work that well. At least on my setup, when I drag a window across DPIs, the window size is incorrect on the other monitor, during the dragging animation, and then when I release the mouse button, the window and fonts properly "snap" to match what I'd expect. A little janky but it kind of works if you have no desire for a polished product.
- fomine3 4y ago
  I wish the conversation was 10 years ago

devmunchies 4y ago

Linux scrub Q, does NVIDIA not use any Linux for themselves? Or is it a financial reason to ignore Linux?

pram 4y ago
I think they don't care about the userspace at all. I assume from their perspective, most (all?) of the Linux use-case is for their expensive cards to be running in servers doing CUDA.
- bootsmann 4y ago
  Yet CUDA still basically only runs on RHEL and Ubuntu LTS. (tbf to Nvidia tho, their support is improving and with big tech putting a lot of weight behind cloud compute the problem will likely resolve itself)
lmm 4y ago
NVidia makes the best Linux driver + graphics card combination going, and always have. If you actually want to play games on Linux, NVidia cards are the way to go. But open-source people don't like them because their driver isn't open-source, and Wayland people don't like them because their driver has limited Wayland support.
- l0b0 4y ago
  Absolutely the opposite experience here. I used Nvidia ~2015-2020, and AMD since. AMD works much better, period. This is with Arch Linux and NixOS.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    At least NVidia did not replace their driver with a less capable one for older cards. So instead of GL 4.1, AMD opens source does GL 3.3 for older APUs, and good luck trying to get any kind of video decoding acceleration.
- DesiLurker 4y ago

whateveracct 4y ago

I have two nvidia machines and they work fine on NixOS. Including prime on my laptop!

lern_too_spel 4y ago

I've got elderly relatives using ChromeOS laptops and Android phones just fine. Both run on Linux and are far easier for them to use and for me to support than the alternatives.

TulliusCicero 4y ago
Oh definitely, but we both know that when people talk about "using Linux" they don't mean Android and ChromeOS. You're technically correct, and for practical purposes incorrect.

cardanome 4y ago

I will offer a third perspective: Linux has a really horrible user experience on the Desktop but it is the least shit option of the mainstream operating systems. For me the choice is simple because a non-free operating would not be acceptable. And no, I am hardcore ideological about it, I use a Linux Kernel with binary blobs and all but the point is having system that serves me and me alone. Telemetry, advertisement, forced updates, not allowing me to do whatever the fuck I want with my system are non-starters. Beyond the ideological I want to note that while learning curve with Linux is steep there are some aspects that make it worth it: It is mostly a one time investment: Linux is pretty conservative. Once you get it, you get it and wont really have to learn anything new. Most of the time even the bigger disruptions to the ecosystem are not that relevant to the end user and can always be simply avoided if one chooses to, not just for years but decades or forever. Compare this to Windows. I used Windows XP heavily and absolutely wouldn't be able to perform basic tasks on an modern Windows system. In comparison, if as Linux user from the Windows XP era were teleported into our times, they would still feel at home on today's Linux and could be perfectly productive in nearly not time. If you are in tech, you might have to learn Linux anyway: Linux server skills are really important to have. And these skills translate back to the Linux Desktop and vice versa as well. Also docker performance is vastly better on Linux than on Windows or Mac so that alone makes the Linux the best platform for developers. (Not to mention many tools being only Linux native or having priority Linux support.) Also people need to stop using Ubuntu. I have been using Linux for ages and find the UI super confusing and wouldn't be able to do anything on it. It's just shit. Use Linux Mint. Oh and I am using NVIDIA GPUs just fine on Linux. I had some trouble with freezes and crashes but most of these got fixed in updates. Maybe we can use Haiku as a daily driver one day but for now there is really no good alternative to Linux.

TulliusCicero 4y ago
My last attempt was using Mint precisely because that's what people kept recommending and it still sucked ass, ran into major resolution/scaling and audio issues immediately that made me abandon it for Windows 10. It's too bad, because W10 has its own annoyances (mostly the forced updates and boot interstitials) but at least it actually worked. While I don't have a problem with proprietary software as a Principe, it is nice to have community driven stuff as a counterpart, which is why I periodically test the waters with Linux. It's just that, every time I run into annoyances and problems that make me give it up. Anyway, ideology aside, I use all three major desktop OSes regularly: gaming desktop is Windows, work laptop is MacOS, workstation is Linux. Linux has certain niceties for developers, but for non-dev-specific stuff it's the most painful to use overall (although MacOS has a penchant for hiding things from the user which can be very frustrating). I also encounter the most instability with it, I think, though these days all three aren't that bad on that front. Edit: though I'm thinking about a Steam Deck, and that's a Linux PC I suppose. Valve has been doing great work at making Linux more viable for PC gaming.

pessimizer 4y ago

Your grandma is a big gamer, right? Or is she into deep learning stuff? Trying to figure out how being easy enough for your grandma is related at all to nvidia gpus.