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Bugs? sounds like they misconfigured their OS Linux is not a commercial product that'll suit everyone all at once, you need to learn about its components, linu

Bugs? sounds like they misconfigured their OS Linux is not a commercial product that'll suit everyone all at once, you need to learn about its components, linux is just a kernel If your argumentation is "various linux bugs", then you should stick to Windows, it has nice "various windows bugs", or macos, it has nice "various macos bugs" There must be a reason why linux empowers the world from micro controllers to datacenters as well as the Steam Deck and the nintendo switch for its FreeBSD variant Use what empowers you, no need to spread FUD

Jorengarenar 4y ago
> linux empowers the (...) nintendo switch for its FreeBSD variant But BSD isn't Linux... Both belong to *nix family, but so does macOS
vlovich123 4y ago
No FUD. On laptops I’ve repeatedly failed to get the correct battery life. I’ve also struggled with audio working correctly and reliably. Sure, something might be misconfigured but the universe of misconfiguration for a Mac and Linux are substantially different because Linux is a much sharper tool. Pointing the finger at the user is emblematic of the problems Linux has when people say it isn’t suitable for the desktop (and these days they mean laptop). Linux empowers from micro controllers to data centers because there are domain experts being paid to keep the whole thing running AND NONE of those use cases are for interactive day to day customer use on a laptop (eg power saving, audio, video playback, video conferencing, etc) b with the exception of steam deck and switch that have a carefully tuned and tightly controlled OS distribution for a carefully chosen hw configuration. Windows is arguably the closest to the problems Linux faces but generally Windows does a much better job providing usable and stable APIs that vendors build against whereas Linux does not always do such a good job (+ vendors care about Windows whereas Linux is generally an afterthought except if it’s relevant to Android).
- Kukumber 4y ago
  > On laptops I’ve repeatedly failed to get the correct battery life You have to configure for it https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management Linux doesn't know nor care about what machine you use, it could be a microcontroller without battery to a datacenter to a laptop to a console, configure for what you use, it's not "windows for Intel PCs, RISC? what is that? fuck off" > I’ve also struggled with audio working correctly and reliably. That is very hard to believe, my bluetooth headset worked out of the box > with the exception of steam deck and switch that have a carefully tuned and tightly controlled OS distribution for a carefully chosen hw configuration That exactly prove my point, users usually misconfigured their OS, the moment you configure your Linux OS, just like Valve did, with your distro of choice to suit your HW, then everything works as expected, that's a one time job If that workflow doesn't suit you, then linux is not for you, and that's ok > Pointing the finger at the user is emblematic of the problems Linux has when people say it isn’t suitable for the desktop (and these days they mean laptop). Because that's the reality of it, the problem is the user who expect things to work for him while ignoring its dimensional capabilities That's not a linux problem, that's a user problem, it's arrogant and selfish to expect "Linux" to work just for your specific HW and specific usecase and all of the effort should be dedicated to you, just you, for your own sake Do like valve did with steam deck and configure your Linux OS for your HW, if you are not ready for that, then use windows or macos
  - vlovich123 4y ago
    > You have to configure for it https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management Linux doesn't know nor care about what machine you use, it could be a microcontroller without battery to a datacenter to a laptop to a console, configure for what you use, it's not "windows for Intel PCs, RISC? what is that? fuck off" Sorry no. That’s not actually true. Linux the kernel and thus the distribution definitely knows I have a laptop. In fact, many things auto-configure themselves correctly around this fact. > Because that's the reality of it, the problem is the user who expect things to work for him while ignoring its dimensional capabilities That's not a linux problem, that's a user problem, it's arrogant and selfish to expect "Linux" to work just for your specific HW and specific usecase and all of the effort should be dedicated to you, just you, for your own sake Consider which OS then I’ll be choosing for my 70 yold mom who isn’t very tech literate. I disagree that it’s arrogant to expect buying widely available and relatively standardized HW (this is x86 not ARM) and expecting it to work well. That’s par for the course for Windows btw. > Do like valve did with steam deck and configure your Linux OS for your HW, if you are not ready for that, then use windows or macos Ummm… so you’re agreeing with the OP and me then? There’s no Linux distribution that provides a smooth out of the box user friendly experience? As a refresher, here’s what OP for this thread said: > Is there any Linux distribution with MacOS levels of reliability, simplicity, and productivity, … Most of my colleagues at work picked Linux over a MacBook, and they waste countless hours fixing their various Linux bugs. Within the specific context of this thread and what’s being discussed, is your post providing evidence for or against what’s being requested? I’m relating that my experience is similar. Sure, I’m not expecting a MacBook because that’s generally not feasible for general HW unless you have the dominance of Windows or Android. And the Linux ecosystem honestly has done a fantastic job in the x64 HW support all things considered. I’m fact, none of the issues I’ve had are really the Linux kernel itself so most of the benefit of the SW/HW layer configuration and isn’t even a distribution thing. And given that my laptop is fairly popular and has dedicated pages on Arch, one would think there might be community-supported “here’s default machine configuration that sets it up correctly” option. There’s also the general weird design choices from KDE and Gnome, trackpad cursors still not working correctly (although much better than before thanks to that guy that’s taken on that task), Flame screenshot tool that still doesn’t work in a multi display setup despite that bug being open forever, Bluetooth audio switching not working quite so well, hibernation not working, laptop not going to hibernation by default on power loss, kwrite not automatically saving and restoring unsaved documents on power loss etc etc. These are all bugs or default behavior selection that doesn’t feel sane and I think it’s fair to say it’s not at the polish level of Windows let alone Mac. Since the vast majority of this isn’t about the HW/SW layer, I’d say comparing against the Mac is also fair game. That’s why I’m agreeing with OP and saying he’s not crazy and that I’m not aware of a distribution that is polished (Manjero comes close but the bugs are mostly upstream). What you’ve written sounds defensive and argumentative which makes it seem like you’re supporting the claim that there is a user friendly distribution that has the polish of Windows or Mac but all you actually seem to have said (and correct me if I’m wrong) is basically that that’s unreasonable to expect. I happen to disagree with that position since it’s actively harmful to trying to have Linux get market share, but that’s also arguing a different thing from what OP said. It’s kind of interesting to see this derailment whenever the comparison to user friendliness / polish of Windows and Max are brought up. I think the truth is that it’s really hard to achieve this in a bazaar model where you’re throwing together arbitrary components and no one is doing regular testing of livability of a distribution from scratch (everyone’s deployed their own workarounds when they hit bugs vs making sure that those workarounds are deployed by default for the users it’s relevant for, or even better fixing the issue when it’s not a problem with Nvidia).
Arbortheus 4y ago
In principle I would love to use Linux, as the developer experience isn’t great on Windows, and I would rather not be tied into expensive Apple computers. However, I don’t want to learn about components of my operating system, that is below my pay grade. I’m not trying to spread FUD, I’m speaking firsthand on some of the experiences my colleagues have had with their brand new $3000 business Thinkpads running all manner of Linux distributions. I don’t doubt Linux is the right choice when you are creating a tightly integrated, walled off product like a Nintendo Switch.
- blangk 4y ago
  I think you have some serious rose tinted glasses on if you are positing that these fixing OS bug scenarios are limited to Linux and do not also commonly occur on proprietary OS. The QA on Microsoft releases has been awful in recent years.
- Kukumber 4y ago
  Your points doesn't make sense since you expect Linux to be Windows, it is not Windows If you need Windows you use Windows If you need an OS that is configurable and open, you use Linux If you don't like to configure your OS, then you don't use Linux That's not "elitism", that's respecting the work done by countless people to offer a free and configurable OS without strings attached There is FUD in OP's comment since my original reply to tell people to use what empowers them got downvoted, -3 pts right now "FUD: Fear, uncertainty and doubt is a propaganda tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations, politics, polling and cults. FUD is generally a strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear."
- vbezhenar 4y ago
  How can learning of your tools being below your pay grade? Ability to use tools properly is a prerequisite for any professional. That sounds very weird to me.
  - whateveracct 4y ago
    Software development is full of anti-intellectualism and friends. So many "professionals" don't think they should Learn New Things. Said "professionals" tend to be excellent org chart climbers otoh.
0xcde4c3db 4y ago
> the nintendo switch for its FreeBSD variant Nintendo Switch doesn't run FreeBSD, although it does use some code from FreeBSD. The Switch OS (Horizon) is a proprietary microkernel-based system that isn't POSIX-flavored at all. I don't think the full lineage/history is publicly documented, but CFW and homebrew toolchain developers have noted strong similarities to the 3DS OS.
pjmlp 4y ago
Sure there are lots of reasons, with free beer UNIX clone being the top one. Nintendo Switch doesn't use BSD, it is a microkernel.

Jorengarenar 4y ago

> linux empowers the (...) nintendo switch for its FreeBSD variant But BSD isn't Linux... Both belong to *nix family, but so does macOS

vlovich123 4y ago

No FUD. On laptops I’ve repeatedly failed to get the correct battery life. I’ve also struggled with audio working correctly and reliably. Sure, something might be misconfigured but the universe of misconfiguration for a Mac and Linux are substantially different because Linux is a much sharper tool. Pointing the finger at the user is emblematic of the problems Linux has when people say it isn’t suitable for the desktop (and these days they mean laptop). Linux empowers from micro controllers to data centers because there are domain experts being paid to keep the whole thing running AND NONE of those use cases are for interactive day to day customer use on a laptop (eg power saving, audio, video playback, video conferencing, etc) b with the exception of steam deck and switch that have a carefully tuned and tightly controlled OS distribution for a carefully chosen hw configuration. Windows is arguably the closest to the problems Linux faces but generally Windows does a much better job providing usable and stable APIs that vendors build against whereas Linux does not always do such a good job (+ vendors care about Windows whereas Linux is generally an afterthought except if it’s relevant to Android).

Kukumber 4y ago
> On laptops I’ve repeatedly failed to get the correct battery life You have to configure for it https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management Linux doesn't know nor care about what machine you use, it could be a microcontroller without battery to a datacenter to a laptop to a console, configure for what you use, it's not "windows for Intel PCs, RISC? what is that? fuck off" > I’ve also struggled with audio working correctly and reliably. That is very hard to believe, my bluetooth headset worked out of the box > with the exception of steam deck and switch that have a carefully tuned and tightly controlled OS distribution for a carefully chosen hw configuration That exactly prove my point, users usually misconfigured their OS, the moment you configure your Linux OS, just like Valve did, with your distro of choice to suit your HW, then everything works as expected, that's a one time job If that workflow doesn't suit you, then linux is not for you, and that's ok > Pointing the finger at the user is emblematic of the problems Linux has when people say it isn’t suitable for the desktop (and these days they mean laptop). Because that's the reality of it, the problem is the user who expect things to work for him while ignoring its dimensional capabilities That's not a linux problem, that's a user problem, it's arrogant and selfish to expect "Linux" to work just for your specific HW and specific usecase and all of the effort should be dedicated to you, just you, for your own sake Do like valve did with steam deck and configure your Linux OS for your HW, if you are not ready for that, then use windows or macos
- vlovich123 4y ago
  > You have to configure for it https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management Linux doesn't know nor care about what machine you use, it could be a microcontroller without battery to a datacenter to a laptop to a console, configure for what you use, it's not "windows for Intel PCs, RISC? what is that? fuck off" Sorry no. That’s not actually true. Linux the kernel and thus the distribution definitely knows I have a laptop. In fact, many things auto-configure themselves correctly around this fact. > Because that's the reality of it, the problem is the user who expect things to work for him while ignoring its dimensional capabilities That's not a linux problem, that's a user problem, it's arrogant and selfish to expect "Linux" to work just for your specific HW and specific usecase and all of the effort should be dedicated to you, just you, for your own sake Consider which OS then I’ll be choosing for my 70 yold mom who isn’t very tech literate. I disagree that it’s arrogant to expect buying widely available and relatively standardized HW (this is x86 not ARM) and expecting it to work well. That’s par for the course for Windows btw. > Do like valve did with steam deck and configure your Linux OS for your HW, if you are not ready for that, then use windows or macos Ummm… so you’re agreeing with the OP and me then? There’s no Linux distribution that provides a smooth out of the box user friendly experience? As a refresher, here’s what OP for this thread said: > Is there any Linux distribution with MacOS levels of reliability, simplicity, and productivity, … Most of my colleagues at work picked Linux over a MacBook, and they waste countless hours fixing their various Linux bugs. Within the specific context of this thread and what’s being discussed, is your post providing evidence for or against what’s being requested? I’m relating that my experience is similar. Sure, I’m not expecting a MacBook because that’s generally not feasible for general HW unless you have the dominance of Windows or Android. And the Linux ecosystem honestly has done a fantastic job in the x64 HW support all things considered. I’m fact, none of the issues I’ve had are really the Linux kernel itself so most of the benefit of the SW/HW layer configuration and isn’t even a distribution thing. And given that my laptop is fairly popular and has dedicated pages on Arch, one would think there might be community-supported “here’s default machine configuration that sets it up correctly” option. There’s also the general weird design choices from KDE and Gnome, trackpad cursors still not working correctly (although much better than before thanks to that guy that’s taken on that task), Flame screenshot tool that still doesn’t work in a multi display setup despite that bug being open forever, Bluetooth audio switching not working quite so well, hibernation not working, laptop not going to hibernation by default on power loss, kwrite not automatically saving and restoring unsaved documents on power loss etc etc. These are all bugs or default behavior selection that doesn’t feel sane and I think it’s fair to say it’s not at the polish level of Windows let alone Mac. Since the vast majority of this isn’t about the HW/SW layer, I’d say comparing against the Mac is also fair game. That’s why I’m agreeing with OP and saying he’s not crazy and that I’m not aware of a distribution that is polished (Manjero comes close but the bugs are mostly upstream). What you’ve written sounds defensive and argumentative which makes it seem like you’re supporting the claim that there is a user friendly distribution that has the polish of Windows or Mac but all you actually seem to have said (and correct me if I’m wrong) is basically that that’s unreasonable to expect. I happen to disagree with that position since it’s actively harmful to trying to have Linux get market share, but that’s also arguing a different thing from what OP said. It’s kind of interesting to see this derailment whenever the comparison to user friendliness / polish of Windows and Max are brought up. I think the truth is that it’s really hard to achieve this in a bazaar model where you’re throwing together arbitrary components and no one is doing regular testing of livability of a distribution from scratch (everyone’s deployed their own workarounds when they hit bugs vs making sure that those workarounds are deployed by default for the users it’s relevant for, or even better fixing the issue when it’s not a problem with Nvidia).

Arbortheus 4y ago

In principle I would love to use Linux, as the developer experience isn’t great on Windows, and I would rather not be tied into expensive Apple computers. However, I don’t want to learn about components of my operating system, that is below my pay grade. I’m not trying to spread FUD, I’m speaking firsthand on some of the experiences my colleagues have had with their brand new $3000 business Thinkpads running all manner of Linux distributions. I don’t doubt Linux is the right choice when you are creating a tightly integrated, walled off product like a Nintendo Switch.

blangk 4y ago
I think you have some serious rose tinted glasses on if you are positing that these fixing OS bug scenarios are limited to Linux and do not also commonly occur on proprietary OS. The QA on Microsoft releases has been awful in recent years.
Kukumber 4y ago
Your points doesn't make sense since you expect Linux to be Windows, it is not Windows If you need Windows you use Windows If you need an OS that is configurable and open, you use Linux If you don't like to configure your OS, then you don't use Linux That's not "elitism", that's respecting the work done by countless people to offer a free and configurable OS without strings attached There is FUD in OP's comment since my original reply to tell people to use what empowers them got downvoted, -3 pts right now "FUD: Fear, uncertainty and doubt is a propaganda tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations, politics, polling and cults. FUD is generally a strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear."
vbezhenar 4y ago
How can learning of your tools being below your pay grade? Ability to use tools properly is a prerequisite for any professional. That sounds very weird to me.
- whateveracct 4y ago
  Software development is full of anti-intellectualism and friends. So many "professionals" don't think they should Learn New Things. Said "professionals" tend to be excellent org chart climbers otoh.

0xcde4c3db 4y ago

> the nintendo switch for its FreeBSD variant Nintendo Switch doesn't run FreeBSD, although it does use some code from FreeBSD. The Switch OS (Horizon) is a proprietary microkernel-based system that isn't POSIX-flavored at all. I don't think the full lineage/history is publicly documented, but CFW and homebrew toolchain developers have noted strong similarities to the 3DS OS.

pjmlp 4y ago

Sure there are lots of reasons, with free beer UNIX clone being the top one. Nintendo Switch doesn't use BSD, it is a microkernel.