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I still don't get why "first steps with Nix" has to include installing packages permanently. Making persistent changes is exactly the kind of thing that is bett

I still don't get why "first steps with Nix" has to include installing packages permanently. Making persistent changes is exactly the kind of thing that is better avoided before users have had the chance to learn anything. > And again it's not "a page containing TLDR examples", it's what the website told me to start with. So the website recommended you to read a page containing introductory examples. Not sure why you insist otherwise. > And which are if anything even worse? The first one ("Nix Manual") goes directly from "you can upgrade packages" and "nix lets you rollback profiles" to "the nix language" to "advanced topics: remote builds". What? The there are far more chapters in the Nix manual than just the three you mentioned.

user5678 4y ago
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masklinn 4y ago
> I still don't get why "first steps with Nix" has to include installing packages permanently. Because if I don't know nix (which, you know, would be why I'd be reading introductory material) I'd be looking to use it, and my basis would be to do would be the way every other distro works. And if I have to type `nix-shell -p python38` every time I want to run Python and `nix-shell -p vimMinimal` every time I want to edit a file, the experiment is not going to last long. > So the website recommended you to read a page containing introductory examples. Not sure why you insist otherwise. I'm not "insisting otherwise", I'm observing that it's confusing, utterly useless, and provides no real guidance towards improvement. And it's where the site told me to go as my second step into nix. But apparently you're perfectly happy that this is what the "first steps with nix" should be (after having berated me for going there), so... proving the point I guess. > What? The there are far more chapters in the Nix manual than just the three you mentioned. Have you actually looked at them? ever? 1 is a quick overview of the entire thing, none of it actually helpful. 2 is a few basic commands expanded upon in (4) 3 is a lot of time spent on installation details 4 is where the meat starts, "You can upgrade package" is 4.1, "profiles are a thing" is 4.2, 4.3 is "nix will eat your disk space" (useless to a beginner), 4.4 is "channels" (even worse), 4.5 is "sharing packages between machines" which could not be less useful at this point./ 5 is, as I said, "the nix language" covering the basics, with 5.4 mentioning derivations and going into plenty of details, none of them actually useful or telling a beginner why they should care Following which we reach 6.1 "remote builds. From a beginner's perspective, tits on a bull are at least funny, the nix manual doesn't even have that going for it. Have a nice day, I'm done wasting time on you.
- soraminazuki 4y ago
  First of all ... > after having berated me Wow, I must be a terrible person, except I never recall berating you. I double checked, and it's just me expressing my disagreement. I'm not the one saying things like "It's like the nix community saw how git is taught and went 'we can do worse'" or "I'm done wasting time on you." > Because if I don't know nix (which, you know, would be why I'd be reading introductory material) I'd be looking to use it, and my basis would be to do would be the way every other distro works. Nix isn't a drop-in replacement of apt or yum. It's possible to use it like one, but that would be missing the whole point. Most of the benefits of Nix is obtained by writing configuration files tailored for each project you're working on. That's another reason why the examples don't start off with a replacement of "sudo apt install". Creating localized development environments is one of the primary use cases of Nix. > Have you actually looked at them? ever? Of course I did. I read the entire manual when I learned Nix. That's why I get the impression that your summary of the Nix manual makes it look more distorted than it actually is. For example: > 1 is a quick overview of the entire thing, none of it actually helpful. The said overview includes instructions for installing packages permanently. You clearly stated that is what you were most interested in, so it actually should've been helpful for you.

user5678 4y ago

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masklinn 4y ago

> I still don't get why "first steps with Nix" has to include installing packages permanently. Because if I don't know nix (which, you know, would be why I'd be reading introductory material) I'd be looking to use it, and my basis would be to do would be the way every other distro works. And if I have to type `nix-shell -p python38` every time I want to run Python and `nix-shell -p vimMinimal` every time I want to edit a file, the experiment is not going to last long. > So the website recommended you to read a page containing introductory examples. Not sure why you insist otherwise. I'm not "insisting otherwise", I'm observing that it's confusing, utterly useless, and provides no real guidance towards improvement. And it's where the site told me to go as my second step into nix. But apparently you're perfectly happy that this is what the "first steps with nix" should be (after having berated me for going there), so... proving the point I guess. > What? The there are far more chapters in the Nix manual than just the three you mentioned. Have you actually looked at them? ever? 1 is a quick overview of the entire thing, none of it actually helpful. 2 is a few basic commands expanded upon in (4) 3 is a lot of time spent on installation details 4 is where the meat starts, "You can upgrade package" is 4.1, "profiles are a thing" is 4.2, 4.3 is "nix will eat your disk space" (useless to a beginner), 4.4 is "channels" (even worse), 4.5 is "sharing packages between machines" which could not be less useful at this point./ 5 is, as I said, "the nix language" covering the basics, with 5.4 mentioning derivations and going into plenty of details, none of them actually useful or telling a beginner why they should care Following which we reach 6.1 "remote builds. From a beginner's perspective, tits on a bull are at least funny, the nix manual doesn't even have that going for it. Have a nice day, I'm done wasting time on you.

soraminazuki 4y ago
First of all ... > after having berated me Wow, I must be a terrible person, except I never recall berating you. I double checked, and it's just me expressing my disagreement. I'm not the one saying things like "It's like the nix community saw how git is taught and went 'we can do worse'" or "I'm done wasting time on you." > Because if I don't know nix (which, you know, would be why I'd be reading introductory material) I'd be looking to use it, and my basis would be to do would be the way every other distro works. Nix isn't a drop-in replacement of apt or yum. It's possible to use it like one, but that would be missing the whole point. Most of the benefits of Nix is obtained by writing configuration files tailored for each project you're working on. That's another reason why the examples don't start off with a replacement of "sudo apt install". Creating localized development environments is one of the primary use cases of Nix. > Have you actually looked at them? ever? Of course I did. I read the entire manual when I learned Nix. That's why I get the impression that your summary of the Nix manual makes it look more distorted than it actually is. For example: > 1 is a quick overview of the entire thing, none of it actually helpful. The said overview includes instructions for installing packages permanently. You clearly stated that is what you were most interested in, so it actually should've been helpful for you.