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You are not the one making the trade offs. The manufacturer is. When they realize that certain anti-consumer features that are not readily appreciated at the po

You are not the one making the trade offs. The manufacturer is. When they realize that certain anti-consumer features that are not readily appreciated at the point of purchase are possible, they get implemented, even if the benefits you get in return are minimal and often more fig leave than anything else. Replaceable batteries and SD Cards are prototypical for features that extend a phones useful life, but whose absence doesn't get punished because our purchase decisions don't factor in things we might wish to have in two years time. And manufacturers have no incentive to extend useful life. If long term consumer preferences really would drive phone design then why does everyone use cases, but there are no options to buy a phone that is less sleak but robust enough not to need a case?

brookst 4y ago
> why does everyone use cases, but there are no options to buy a phone that is less sleak but robust enough not to need a case? I don’t use a case, and I resent you supporting the use of government power to force me to make a tradeoff that I have chosen against. Cases as an option mean the same phone can serve everyone, and people can choose to use a case or not. You are literally asking why phone manufacturers choose to serve a bigger market rather than a smaller one. As someone else asked, what other purchasing decisions that I make should be illegal in the name of forcing every product to conform to your personal preferences rather than letting consumers like me decide what we want?
- Certhas 4y ago
  You are (wilfully?) missing the point that the paragraph about cases is making. Many people (most in my bubble) use cases. As consumers the device that we want isn't being built, and we resort to a subpar substitute. Why is something that soany people so obviously want not being built? Why is there no "slightly more clunky and no glass on the back" 'caseless' option? My thesis is because markets don't optimize for what we want, but for what is easy to sell us. As for other decisions you don't get to make: One obvious example is the safety requirements for all your electronic devices. You can not decide to sell/buy unsafe devices.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    It optimizes for what makes companies more money, once all of their costs are factored in. That's all. We - customers - are merely consumers to them, and our only role is to buy what they sell; to give them as much money as we can bear to give for whatever they're selling. Externalities are equally ignored, and government fines are simply another cost (which is, ironically, why significant fines drive changes).
  - brookst 4y ago
    > Why is something that soany people so obviously want not being built? Why is there no "slightly more clunky and no glass on the back" 'caseless' option? Let’s try this another way. Pretend your a phone company, and pretend that 70% of people use cases. And pretend 50% of those are zealots about cases and are offended at even the suggestion that they might ever go caseless. I think it’s less than that, but whatever. So you’ve got three choices! 1. Build totally different phones for case and caseless. Everything from development to tooling to distribution is totally separate. 2. Focus on one market or the other, but not both 3. Ship a phone that works great caseless, and cases that can be attached for people who want bulkier phones. Now, even if you personally hate the idea of a caseless phone, I hope you can work through why it is more economically and environmentally efficient to make cases an add-on. I’m sorry the market isn’t serving your needs. I’m less sympathetic with anyone who insists their particular niche is actually the silent majority that would obviously be the correct group for companies to center every product decision on.
    - Certhas 4y ago
      I don't get what you are suggesting here. Companies build separate phones for separate market segments all the time if it attracts customers. Moreover, there are many companies building phones. Yet there are ~ 0 caseless phones out there. Your argument does not explain this _at all_. How you can look at this situation and pretend it's not an obvious market failure is beyond me. The only question is what the origin of the market failure is, and whether regulation could help. I don't think for cases regulation is an appropriate tool, for USB and replaceable batteries I think it is, for SD Cards I am not convinced either way. But to have a meaningful discussion on this, it's first necessary to acknowledge how irrational the phone market actually is, which seems to be something that some people are (ideologically?) opposed to in this thread.
sidlls 4y ago
Replaceable batteries and "right to repair" features in general for consumer electronics are things a relatively fringe group of consumers actually want. Most people would prefer to simply replace a broken device or take it to a tech repair shop and have them do it: they aren't hackers or electronics tinkerers and simply don't care to do it.
- gtvwill 4y ago
  Lol >50% of farmers would disagree with you. Your opinion re. Who wants to fix stuff is quite limited it would seem. I mean hell my parents and every old person I have provided tech support to generally if they find out you can't change a battery in a device make a comment along the lines of "that's dumb" and "that's wasteful". The kids I tech about tech are the same. So yeah.. Probably just your peer group bud. Most of my mates would prefer to spend 10 seconds unscrewing a compartment than paying someone 10 bucks for nothing.
- gaius_baltar 4y ago
  > a relatively fringe group of consumers actually want Pretty big chance that we are falling victim to a paradox here. If the majority of users think "I can't buy a phone with a replaceable battery because all high-end phones from any manufacturer lacks them" the battery issue never get cited on polls on why a person bought a particular phone.

brookst 4y ago

> why does everyone use cases, but there are no options to buy a phone that is less sleak but robust enough not to need a case? I don’t use a case, and I resent you supporting the use of government power to force me to make a tradeoff that I have chosen against. Cases as an option mean the same phone can serve everyone, and people can choose to use a case or not. You are literally asking why phone manufacturers choose to serve a bigger market rather than a smaller one. As someone else asked, what other purchasing decisions that I make should be illegal in the name of forcing every product to conform to your personal preferences rather than letting consumers like me decide what we want?

Certhas 4y ago
You are (wilfully?) missing the point that the paragraph about cases is making. Many people (most in my bubble) use cases. As consumers the device that we want isn't being built, and we resort to a subpar substitute. Why is something that soany people so obviously want not being built? Why is there no "slightly more clunky and no glass on the back" 'caseless' option? My thesis is because markets don't optimize for what we want, but for what is easy to sell us. As for other decisions you don't get to make: One obvious example is the safety requirements for all your electronic devices. You can not decide to sell/buy unsafe devices.
- falcolas 4y ago
  It optimizes for what makes companies more money, once all of their costs are factored in. That's all. We - customers - are merely consumers to them, and our only role is to buy what they sell; to give them as much money as we can bear to give for whatever they're selling. Externalities are equally ignored, and government fines are simply another cost (which is, ironically, why significant fines drive changes).
- brookst 4y ago
  > Why is something that soany people so obviously want not being built? Why is there no "slightly more clunky and no glass on the back" 'caseless' option? Let’s try this another way. Pretend your a phone company, and pretend that 70% of people use cases. And pretend 50% of those are zealots about cases and are offended at even the suggestion that they might ever go caseless. I think it’s less than that, but whatever. So you’ve got three choices! 1. Build totally different phones for case and caseless. Everything from development to tooling to distribution is totally separate. 2. Focus on one market or the other, but not both 3. Ship a phone that works great caseless, and cases that can be attached for people who want bulkier phones. Now, even if you personally hate the idea of a caseless phone, I hope you can work through why it is more economically and environmentally efficient to make cases an add-on. I’m sorry the market isn’t serving your needs. I’m less sympathetic with anyone who insists their particular niche is actually the silent majority that would obviously be the correct group for companies to center every product decision on.
  - Certhas 4y ago
    I don't get what you are suggesting here. Companies build separate phones for separate market segments all the time if it attracts customers. Moreover, there are many companies building phones. Yet there are ~ 0 caseless phones out there. Your argument does not explain this _at all_. How you can look at this situation and pretend it's not an obvious market failure is beyond me. The only question is what the origin of the market failure is, and whether regulation could help. I don't think for cases regulation is an appropriate tool, for USB and replaceable batteries I think it is, for SD Cards I am not convinced either way. But to have a meaningful discussion on this, it's first necessary to acknowledge how irrational the phone market actually is, which seems to be something that some people are (ideologically?) opposed to in this thread.

sidlls 4y ago

Replaceable batteries and "right to repair" features in general for consumer electronics are things a relatively fringe group of consumers actually want. Most people would prefer to simply replace a broken device or take it to a tech repair shop and have them do it: they aren't hackers or electronics tinkerers and simply don't care to do it.

gtvwill 4y ago
Lol >50% of farmers would disagree with you. Your opinion re. Who wants to fix stuff is quite limited it would seem. I mean hell my parents and every old person I have provided tech support to generally if they find out you can't change a battery in a device make a comment along the lines of "that's dumb" and "that's wasteful". The kids I tech about tech are the same. So yeah.. Probably just your peer group bud. Most of my mates would prefer to spend 10 seconds unscrewing a compartment than paying someone 10 bucks for nothing.
gaius_baltar 4y ago
> a relatively fringe group of consumers actually want Pretty big chance that we are falling victim to a paradox here. If the majority of users think "I can't buy a phone with a replaceable battery because all high-end phones from any manufacturer lacks them" the battery issue never get cited on polls on why a person bought a particular phone.